POE, FEM, GEN You have just entered room "tichure Chat02." PinkkLady1 has entered the room. Tiffa028 has entered the room. PinkkLady1: hello Tiffa028: hello all tichure: hey now PinkkLady1: should we dilly dally till others arrive. PinkkLady1: i hope everyone had a great day Tiffa028: i finally found out what "come together" was about tichure: great tichure: can you explain it to ME? PinkkLady1: watch out.... PinkkLady1: :-) Tiffa028: haha.....well, this is what my music teach told me... PinkkLady1: come together as one? Tiffa028: every time the song refers to "he", it's talking about Lennon.... tichure: hmmm tichure: actually, flattop with juju eyeballs is tichure: j edgar hoover Tiffa028: really.....well, he said lennon Tiffa028: and it's about his funeral PinkkLady1: at our school this teacher ?? tichure: who had a dossier on lennon and had him kicked out of usa because he though lennon was a commie Tiffa028: *ahhhhh* now you tell me after the paper is turned in.....:'( Tiffa028: and the part were it sounds like...."shomp"....it's actually saying "shoot me" Tiffa028: crazy song.....but nice beat tichure: at his real problem was that, along with Nixon, he felt that lennon was part of a movement in America to overthrow the United States government through protest Tiffa028: i see......wow lots of hidden messages in that song PinkkLady1: songs are so more than they appear its bitchen PinkkLady1: i mean its symbolic PinkkLady1: :-) Tiffa028: i know tichure: I haven't heard bitchin since 1978 tichure: when used as an adjective tichure: hehehe Tiffa028: haha tichure: nice to see it come back PinkkLady1: ashreed69 needs nn invite mr e tichure: last week we discussed feminist and formalist criticism PinkkLady1: i think she just got booted tichure: so let's do some review tichure: biographical criticism tichure: author's life as a reflection in the work tichure: historical criticism tichure: the time and place to work was written or refers to as reflected in the work tichure: feminist criticism... MatrixLady007 has entered the room. PinkkLady1: womans point of view tichure: a criticism based onthe perception that most works are written by, about, and for men tichure: lady, in some ways yes tichure: but in this class I want you to focus on gender criticism tichure: heh Tiffa028: lol Tiffa028: someones hungry Tiffa028: :-) PinkkLady1: as in from each point the diff sexes? tichure: you will analyze how men and women are portrayed...whether the author tends to portray one gender or another or both as stereotypical or not PinkkLady1: i need to get my notes....2 secs. tichure: formalist criticism tichure: formalist criticism is limited to the work itself, ignoring all the other factors, including author, history, or reader impact Tiffa028 has left the room. PinkkLady1: like non emotional straight facts right tichure: yes lady PinkkLady1: im off PinkkLady1: bitchen:-) its one of my fav word PinkkLady1: cant help to use it AshReed69 has entered the room. AshReed69: Yeah AshReed69: I'm finally in AshReed69: yeah PinkkLady1: hello tichure: okay AshReed69: hello destiny and pinkk.... MatrixLady007: hi Tiffa028 has entered the room. AshReed69: so what is the topic for the evening PinkkLady1: back to formalist criticism tichure: thank you Lady AshReed69: formalist criticism PinkkLady1: were just reviewing AshReed69: ok PinkkLady1: she's right here AshReed69: so are we doing page review PinkkLady1: ? Tiffa028 has left the room. tichure: I'm still inviting people Wormstheword has entered the room. AshReed69: ok PinkkLady1: i hope alot of people show up tonight tichure: let's look at to Helen by Edgar Allan Poe PinkkLady1: k tichure: from a formalist perspective, what is this poem about PinkkLady1: pg 911 AshReed69: yeah tichure: remember, formalist is limited only to what is on the page AshReed69: my favorite PinkkLady1: she misses her dude AshReed69: i remeber that from last time AshReed69: sure we couldnt start with feminism this time AshReed69: :-) PinkkLady1: shes waiting for him tichure: lady Wormstheword: i see it as a love poem tichure: does the poem have anything into about the woman's emotion MatrixLady007: no PinkkLady1: but they areed apart tichure: from whose perspective worm MatrixLady007: its Poe's pers. tichure: try again matrix AshReed69: its an honoring poem PinkkLady1: shes tired tichure: from formalist perspective, we ignore who the author is PinkkLady1: wait no AshReed69: not from the womans emotions no.... just the mans... the one dedicating it to her Wormstheword: it could be anybody tichure: who is speaking in the pollen tichure: in the poem tichure: too broad worm AshReed69: a man AshReed69: is speaking Wormstheword: a man PinkkLady1: a man MatrixLady007: man tichure: okay PinkkLady1: sailor/ or traveler? AshReed69: an emperor or soldier of high standing tichure: a man who what? tichure: why Lady MatrixLady007: sailor tichure: why read tichure: why matrix tichure: how you know PinkkLady1: because of him wandering and going to his native shore tichure: what tells you those things MatrixLady007: because he talks about the sea tichure: good lady Wormstheword: sailor because of the comparisons to the sea tichure: good matrix tichure: good worm tichure: what else do we know AshReed69: because he talks how the Naiad airs have brought him home To the glory that was Greece tichure: is their hope? MatrixLady007: he's got a thing for greek mythology tichure: is greece mentioned specifically PinkkLady1: he was away and came back to greece and saw the figure MatrixLady007: yes PinkkLady1: the helen of troy statue AshReed69: only high society men had the time to have the luxuries as to daydream and discuss the gods/goddess tichure: is there hope expressed in this poem Wormstheword: we know he really misses her and her images is what is making him hold on AshReed69: ok AshReed69: is there hope in the poem PinkkLady1: ya he sees an image familar of home PinkkLady1: means he's almost there gives you hope AshReed69: yes AshReed69: Lo!.... window-niche tichure: lady, is Helen of troy mentioned specifically in the text of the poem AshReed69: .... the agate lamp wi/in they hand! AshReed69: it is a symbol to him PinkkLady1: like she waits for her hubby too MatrixLady007: helen is mentioned but not specifically helen of troy PinkkLady1: greece and helen we associate right? AshReed69: not in the actually poem at least tichure: AshReed69: only high society men had the time to have the luxuries as to daydream and discuss the gods/goddess.. is this a reference to a particular time PinkkLady1: its in line 1 tichure: it is important that in formalist criticism that you cannot add anything the author does not PinkkLady1: mention of helen AshReed69: yes AshReed69: when it says to the glory that was Greece and the grandeur that was Rome tichure: if Helen of Troy is specifically mentioned, then we can follow that route PinkkLady1: its no opinions straight facts and what's there tichure: if not, we cannot PinkkLady1: it is line one helen the beauty is to me AshReed69: and the mention of Helen shows a certain era of pre christian MatrixLady007: so we cannot tichure: correct, lady AshReed69: to praise a statue of helen PinkkLady1: not praised she was worshiped like a goddess right? AshReed69: yes AshReed69: i think so PinkkLady1: k MatrixLady007: there is a description but not a direct mention of helen of TROY AshReed69: adored PinkkLady1: no but greece makes you associate the two MatrixLady007: just of some chick named helen MatrixLady007: thats all the read knows MatrixLady007: reader tichure: good point matrix AshReed69: it is the language used as well Wormstheword: this woman holds the beauty and strength of helen of troy tichure: lady, Greece makes YOU link the 2 PinkkLady1: classic face, hyacinth hair tichure: you are putting your own experience into the work PinkkLady1: oops MatrixLady007: but there is no specific mention of the city TROY AshReed69: "like those Nicean barks of yore../ Thy Naiad airs have brought me home tichure: worm, doesn't mention Helen of Troy or are you filling in the gaps MatrixLady007: so we cannot correctly connect the two AshReed69: Naiad are mythological nymphs of the waters tichure: does it Wormstheword: the images make us see a greek beauty tichure: yes.... tichure: they make you see Greek beauty tichure: what if I don't know anything about Greece MatrixLady007: then u have no clue PinkkLady1: she's a classic figure PinkkLady1: statue like tichure: what would I see the poem tichure: exactly lady tichure: is tichure: matrix MatrixLady007: but if you knew nothing of greece and this helen of troy then when you read this poem you would think it is about some girlie named helen MatrixLady007: you wouldn't connect the 2 PinkkLady1: a man who is away from his love who is coming home? tichure: likely matrix tichure: exactly yes lady PinkkLady1: bitchen :-) tichure: boss PinkkLady1: and she is awaiting him with the lights on tichure: GROOVY PinkkLady1: boss...lmao PinkkLady1: sorry MatrixLady007: lol tichure: the whole purpose of formalist criticism is to force the reader to not translate the work for the writer MatrixLady007: but to take it as it is given PinkkLady1: i struggle i always throw my 2 cents in MatrixLady007: given* tichure: you must this associate yourself from making connections because formalist criticism requires that the reader only take what is literally on the written page tichure: and not to add anything else tichure: even if it is logical PinkkLady1: just the words no more---got it AshReed69: very good lady tichure: that is it MatrixLady007: so no analysis MatrixLady007: analysis bad tichure: not exactly tichure: we still would decide what is there literally, using common symbols and other factors PinkkLady1: hey ash im actually getting it and feeling soooooo good//sorry tichure: it is clear in this poem that this is a poem about a person who misses this woman tichure: is there some kind of inference that they will get together PinkkLady1: associating words and such right? tichure: in the poem MatrixLady007: shes probably dead tichure: yes lady PinkkLady1: he can see her in the window hes almost there MatrixLady007: oh nm tichure: matrix, what tells you that PinkkLady1: shes standing cant be dead right MatrixLady007: How Statue-like I see theee stand Wormstheword: her described images are almost spiritual PinkkLady1: and holding a lamp MatrixLady007: shes probably a corpse tichure: do corpses stand AshReed69: not dead AshReed69: i think she is a statue by the reference and not someone real MatrixLady007: lol AshReed69: a symbol of home PinkkLady1: she is as beautiful as a perfect statue PinkkLady1: to him tichure: there are two distinct translations here PinkkLady1: and she awaits him after his long journey tichure: one is that this is. about a statue AshReed69: her beauty to symbolize all that he left behind and what he looks forward to coming home to tichure: the other is that this is about a person who is standing still tichure: which seems more likely from a formalist perspective tichure: ? PinkkLady1: person standing still tichure: why Lady tichure: why not the statue AshReed69: are we to look for symbols in the poem PinkkLady1: he observes her from a far tichure: yes ash PinkkLady1: has no way of knowing AshReed69: ok Wormstheword: her standing still makes us see her permanent wait for him PinkkLady1: i mean we cant assume their lover PinkkLady1: never mind tichure: why not lady eeyore fan 023 has entered the room. tichure: there is a certain amount of loyalty there, worm PinkkLady1: he sees her from afar. we don't even know she knows him right? tichure: hey now fan eeyore fan 023: yea, I made it tichure: that's correct lady PinkkLady1: he could be a perv stalker MatrixLady007: yikes tichure: is that in the poem or is that you speaking lady Wormstheword: she holds the lamp to the sea and waits for him to arrive AshReed69: so Nicean barks of yore = PinkkLady1: sorry AshReed69: is the comparison to the city afar.... a place he is thinking of PinkkLady1: NOT FORMAlist :-) tichure: yes ash PinkkLady1: good job ash :-) tichure: yes worm tichure: very good AshReed69: a perfumed sea is the sweet smell of home eeyore fan 023: sorry, which poem are you talking about? Wormstheword: and her tichure: to Helen PinkkLady1: he was way tired from traveling or sailing MatrixLady007: hellen by poe AshReed69: weary wayworn wanderer shows he has been gone a long time..traveling far MatrixLady007: pg 911 tichure: Edgar Allan Poe PinkkLady1: to Helen pg 911 eeyore fan 023: thank you tichure: yes ash tichure: yes lady tichure: are we sick a formalist yet MatrixLady007: yup tichure: one last question tichure: does the poem imply that he will actually get to see her tichure: from a formalist perspective AshReed69: on ...seas long wont to roam.... i think this is he has a love for the sea but tires of it.... cant remember what wont means MatrixLady007: no MatrixLady007: its almost as if he lost her tichure: is it optimistic or not MatrixLady007: nope MatrixLady007: kinda sad tichure: what tells you that matrix PinkkLady1: yes he sees the light isnt that symbolic AshReed69: the description of Helen is more than just the statue but what she represents to him and what he remembers his home to be tichure: wont means desire, yearning, yen, need MatrixLady007: the word usage: ie: desperate etc AshReed69: thought so AshReed69: wasnt sure tichure: Lady symbolic of what AshReed69: so that would be his desire for home tichure: yes -- tichure: ash tichure: yes PinkkLady1: light on someone's home AshReed69: and the description of the statue is his remembrance with more PinkkLady1: sorry no not formalist cancel tichure: actually, seas long wont to roam means... AshReed69: edifying his homeland as being better than any place that the sea has to offer tichure: possibly ash, why does not stay there tichure: seas long wont to roam PinkkLady1: no its better than the sea tichure: this gets back to identify who speaker is AshReed69: it seems that he is a traveler of some sort and possibly a soldier tichure: why doesn't he just stay home PinkkLady1: the guy on the boat tichure: yes ash Wormstheword: a lonely seaman tichure: yes worm tichure: ... AshReed69: because of duty AshReed69: in roman / greek times that was a serious thing tichure: according to the poem, his nature is to Roam...even if he feels lonely tichure: ash, you are mentioning historical context AshReed69: and duty was honorable no matter how much you dont want to go AshReed69: not lonely seaman AshReed69: he talks about " To the glory that was Greece PinkkLady1: just the facts maaam :-0 Wormstheword: it sounds as if he had no choice but to be away from home PinkkLady1: :-) tichure: one thing about formalist context is that it makes the work transcend time tichure: since Greece still exists PinkkLady1: DESPERATE SEAS ROAM. HE HAS TOO tichure: we don't necessarily have to apply to ancient Greece PinkkLady1: OOPS sorry for caps AshReed69: am i AshReed69: is that a bad thing AshReed69: ok.......... so stay away from historical context AshReed69: wwwwwwwwwhhhhhhhhhhhhooooooooooooooooooooooo tichure: if you're doing formalist perspective, stay away from historical tichure: however, tichure: now let's do historical PinkkLady1: nice mr e real nice :-) tichure: what time period Is alluded to PinkkLady1: keep us on our toes AshReed69: mr. e AshReed69: ok AshReed69: historical tichure: exactly tichure: go ahead ash QuietAvngr has entered the room. tichure: lay it on us AshReed69: hello avenger PinkkLady1: go ash go ash PinkkLady1: sorry im a dork PinkkLady1: since we could scroll up and reread what you said before :-) QuietAvngr: hello PinkkLady1: ancient greece PinkkLady1: oops tichure: there is another aspect to the historical tichure: besides nike, who else is mentioned in the poem tichure: look at the end MatrixLady007: its kind of got that gladiator feel to it QuietAvngr: Psyche tichure: explained matrix tichure: meaning what avenger AshReed69 has left the room. PinkkLady1: im not getting it tichure: from that perspective alone, avenger, where does this Helen exist? MatrixLady007: the language, the description of this woman, a man who seems to be a solider type QuietAvngr: in terms of history? tichure: who was psyche tichure: what does psyche refer to MatrixLady007: this guys soul QuietAvngr: a figure in Greek mythology AshReed69 has entered the room. QuietAvngr: yes, soul AshReed69: craaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.....................uuddddd tichure: literally, yes avenger dncngrose has entered the room. QuietAvngr: that he needs her for his soul to exist AshReed69: right in the middle of a thought QuietAvngr: or continue on tichure: figuratively yes matrix PinkkLady1: how dncngrose: sorry im late, what page is it on? PinkkLady1: 911 tichure: ash, explain to us the historical context of the Trojan war dncngrose: didn't we do that one last week? AshReed69: ok tichure: I'm not sure rose tichure: we are doing it now, nonetheless dncngrose: ooopss sorry, wrong one Wormstheword: using ancient greece gives us the sense of romanticism AshReed69: the historical context of the Trojan war is about Helen of Troy and how she fell for someone not of troy tichure: yes worm Wormstheword: strong men, beautiful women. AshReed69: she was the most beautiful woman in all the lands to see tichure: What does it add the poem, worm and ash AshReed69: that is how the war was started is because her husband (i think) was jealous AshReed69: and the man from the other team fell in love with helen AshReed69: and how that adds to the poem is tichure: when was this poem written AshReed69: That it was her beauty that kept men close to her AshReed69: they couldn't get enough of her essence AshReed69: and so AshReed69: the guy in the poem is relating in the same way Wormstheword: we can see the beauty of the woman by the historical context we know from studying ancient greece QuietAvngr: in a way, it makes the poem universal AshReed69: it is what helen represented AshReed69: and what her statue does now for this traveler AshReed69: ??? Wormstheword: it is a place that is almost mystical and makes us use our imagination towards beauty PinkkLady1: 1820 or so PinkkLady1: sorry for that was scrolling up AshReed69: earlier than that i would say pinkklady tichure: yes worm tichure: ash, what it does this woman in Poem do for this speaker tichure: applied to the imagery of Helen of Troy PinkkLady1: i meant when it was written tichure: specifically tichure: the date should be right at the end of Poem QuietAvngr: he makes her the epitome of beauty tichure: yes avenger QuietAvngr: 1831-1843 MatrixLady007: 1831-43 dncngrose: he has something to call his own tichure: some of you may know the answer to the following question: what major philosophical/medical approach was created in the 1800s PinkkLady1: i suck at history---its sad MatrixLady007: i have no clue QuietAvngr: lobotomy? AshReed69 has left the room. tichure: you're on the right track avenger dncngrose: you mean a drug? PinkkLady1: what about surgical practices---- PinkkLady1: embalming? tichure: treatment tichure: for emotional disorders PinkkLady1: prozac tichure: very famous guy PinkkLady1: sorry PinkkLady1: freud tichure: yes MatrixLady007: hes a crack head MatrixLady007: sorry tichure: he created something called psychoanalysis PinkkLady1: bo hes very sexual tichure: he didn't smoke cocaine MatrixLady007: i know tichure: he gave it to his patients PinkkLady1: lmao PinkkLady1: oh my god MatrixLady007: crack head as in psycho PinkkLady1: i got it matrix:-) tichure: this gets back to the last lines of the poem MatrixLady007: hahahahaha QuietAvngr: he was suffering without her dncngrose: so hes a crackhead, the speaker? MatrixLady007: psyche the term is a Freudian term tichure: who does poe allude to? tichure: yes matrix tichure: no rose Wormstheword: she will always be waiting tichure: you're taking your fellow students too literally QuietAvngr: was i totally wrong? dncngrose: im lost. PinkkLady1: and always beautiful tichure: remember, worm that this is written from the man's perspective Wormstheword: he knows she will always be waiting QuietAvngr: he needs her, emotionally tichure: will he ever really meet this woman PinkkLady1: no tichure: will he always be waiting tichure: why not lady dncngrose: so he's just idolizing about what he wants? QuietAvngr: no, because she only exists in his mind PinkkLady1: she doesn't really exist? Wormstheword: in his dreams tichure: when he refers to psyche, what does that tell us QuietAvngr: as i said... tichure: yes PinkkLady1: hes nuts tichure: yes tichure: yes tichure: yes dncngrose: hes always dreaming tichure: maybe not nuts PinkkLady1: in la la land tichure: but certainly focused PinkkLady1: :-) Wormstheword: her image gives him hope tichure: tried to avoid slang tichure: its imprecise tichure: well, PinkkLady1: sorry mr e tichure: let's look at biographical dncngrose: he doesn't know what's real tichure: what was poe's experience with women MatrixLady007: a sad one Wormstheword: bad, they died? tichure: actually, Rose, I would say that he is admitting that this person exists in his mind MatrixLady007: all the women seem to have left PinkkLady1: could symbolize time in service when on the sea dncngrose: no one to compare tichure: be specific folks tichure: did he go to sea? tichure: what happened to his mother PinkkLady1: nope oops PinkkLady1: she dies PinkkLady1: died tichure: how Wormstheword: maybe Poe is saying he feels lost at sea PinkkLady1: not sure tichure: what happened to his adoptive mother tichure: what happened to his wife dncngrose: well he was in the army, maybe he was at sea tichure: what happened to his friend's mother PinkkLady1: all of them died tichure: he washed out of West Point tichure: mother and wife died of tuberculosis QuietAvngr: wasn't this written for his friend's mother? tichure: strangled to death on their own blood QuietAvngr: she died at an early age tichure: yes avenger QuietAvngr: from cancer, i think tichure: what is poe's experience generally with women Wormstheword: all of the women he loved left, know he can only know them in spirit tichure: applied to the poem QuietAvngr: they all die on him! PinkkLady1: negative. unfulfilled. PinkkLady1: lost tichure: worm is on the right track dncngrose: he imagined how they were like tichure: lady yes tichure: rose does he ever really get close dncngrose: i dont think he had enough time tichure: good point PinkkLady1: he loves but always looses them too soon dncngrose: he was busy doing other things tichure: yes lady tichure: is that reflected in the poem PinkkLady1: i think he was young and was QuietAvngr: he was at sea Wormstheword: never close which is maybe why in the poem the comparison is made to being at sea while the women are on land tichure: the phrase "at sea" or "asea" dncngrose: maybe he was always depressed, thats why he wrote tichure: refers to dncngrose: i mean sulked QuietAvngr: not really here. lost, trying to find meaning in life PinkkLady1: in your own world. like locked in your own head. eeyore fan 023: yes, he seems to be the man in the sea, looking at a women, or imagining a women he cannot have, but sees in his mind. tichure: Rose, you are correct, but we want to try to apply to the imagery specifically in the poem tichure: yes avenger tichure: yes fan PinkkLady1: he is searching for a permanent love. PinkkLady1: so he creates one tichure: does he think he will find her tichure: according to the poem QuietAvngr: yes PinkkLady1: no tichure: is there hope in the Poem, knowing who the author is QuietAvngr: in the last stanza, he sees her, waiting for him tichure: there seems to be a bit of disagreement Wormstheword: statue like could also mean dead like, like not really a true person, just a spirit to hold on to dncngrose: he was always "weary" to his own native shore PinkkLady1: no tichure: but can he get there avenger QuietAvngr: "statue-like", holding an agate lamp dncngrose: i dont think he wants to literally see her tichure: explain rose QuietAvngr: no, that is why he cries out to his soul tichure: what would happen if he actually met her dncngrose: his image of her is enough tichure: so, avenger, will his wish be fulfilled PinkkLady1: would not know what to do since lack of experience QuietAvngr: i think so QuietAvngr: well... dncngrose: this feeling has brought him "home" PinkkLady1: i think he is struggling PinkkLady1: within himself his psyche dncngrose: i dont think he wants anymore than he says QuietAvngr: if "helen" are the important women in his life, and they are dead, then he will meet them in death tichure: tichure: but can he get there avenger tichure: QuietAvngr: no, that is why he cries out to his soul PinkkLady1: he longs for it but also scared tichure: an interesting approach avenger QuietAvngr: okay, then he won't tichure: heheh QuietAvngr: well, he won't be alive tichure: I am merely reporting what you said tichure: that would be different PinkkLady1: mr e always on top eeyore fan 023: he is afraid to love again, for fear that anyone he loves will die. QuietAvngr: i know, and i'm contradicting myself PinkkLady1: scared of all relationships PinkkLady1: scared of the constant hurting/ MatrixLady007: good bye everyone <<>> tichure: avenger, as long you support your analysis you should be correct Wormstheword: he has an easier time loving from "sea" than having it right in front of him tichure: but if you contradict yourself, we will have problems tichure: why worm MatrixLady007 has left the room. Wormstheword: from fear of losing what he loves AshReed69 has entered the room. tichure: are you saying he is somehow happy being sad AshReed69: *******************************"''''''''//////////Kaboom Computer///////////////"""""" PinkkLady1: hes sad because he wants love but something bad always happens Wormstheword: sadness is all he knows when he gains nothing in true love tichure: this is important dncngrose: he doesn't want to feel alone, that's why he's weeping for her tichure: for our next critical approach tichure: psycho analytical criticism PinkkLady1: yikes tichure: psycho analytical criticism is a criticism based on one of two major factors tichure: the first use the author using Freudian slips to have characters reveal hidden aspects of themselves AshReed69: what in the world is psycho analytical criticism AshReed69: and the second PinkkLady1: i hope i remember psych 101 lol tichure: the second is the critic analyzing the author, looking for revelations about the author's own psyche hidden in the work itself AshReed69: oh boy PinkkLady1: oh my god AshReed69: your kidding right AshReed69: lol tichure: and if we decide that this speaker is poe AshReed69: mr. e PinkkLady1: mr e does not kid about english :-) AshReed69: who was a nutty guy as it is dncngrose: dont understand part 2 AshReed69: dont i know it PinkkLady1: lol :-) tichure: and we decide that he is sad, and yet is comfortable with the sadness, revels in the sadness tichure: we are doing psycho analytical criticism tichure: warm basically said that the speaker, Poe, only knows sadness AshReed69: comfortable with the sadness would mean that he is either secure with his feelings AshReed69: or tichure: and therefore there is a certain comfort in what he knows PinkkLady1: okay- i don't think he's okay with being sad. I think he just accepts it like it okay normal tichure: and therefore if he were ever to meet any of these women AshReed69: there is no other comfort but the sadness tichure: he wouldn't know what to do tichure: again, Lady, is poes experience normal PinkkLady1: life--- losing partners yes some people are really really unlucky- Wormstheword: i think Poe would know what to do but never act upon it tichure: is that kind of loss and longing normal PinkkLady1: no PinkkLady1: to him yes PinkkLady1: to me no AshReed69: so what your trying to say if i am interpreting this correctly is that ?? women are so out of reach for this man that in their presence he would crumble dncngrose: no but he doesn't know normal tichure: as with all of those criticisms, we must be very careful not to read too much in, and we must look for substantiation in the text as well as in the authors biography AshReed69: i'm lost tichure: it is because of criticisms like feminist and psychoanalytical that formalist was created PinkkLady1: base it on him only right? dncngrose: you mean like the formalist approach tichure: the formalist basically said that critics are reading too much into the material AshReed69: ok AshReed69: yeah tichure: yes Rose PinkkLady1 has left the room. tichure: but psychoanalytical news important because it carries with the an understanding that artists create art to express themselves and expressed their souls AshReed69: what are we looking for in this poem mr. e tichure: we would be looking for poe dncngrose: his biography Wormstheword: almost like their form of therapy tichure: does Poe's life fit the profile of the speaker of the poem dncngrose: yes Wormstheword: somewhat dncngrose: suffer a lost dncngrose: a loss dncngrose: its a very sad poem AshReed69: Edgar Allen Poe lost his mother when he was 2 tichure: is his experience and life perspective revealed in the poem AshReed69: and was raised without his sibling AshReed69: and had tough life choices growing up dncngrose: not in the poem tichure: who also happened to be a girl tichure: rose, generally? AshReed69: definitely in the poem Wormstheword: seeing the woman from afar...yes AshReed69: he never knew his mother tichure: we're not looking for direct biography AshReed69: and so could represent tichure: ash, she died in front of him AshReed69: what she meant to him tichure: yes AshReed69: an idol tichure: in a way AshReed69: something out of reach for him AshReed69: in other words tichure: yes AshReed69: sorry head going faster than fingers can type dncngrose: he was too young to understand anything AshReed69: and the travels tichure: is that reflected in the poem AshReed69: his many journeys in life AshReed69: sadness AshReed69: and his hope for a better life as it should have been with his mother tichure: Rose, the only thing a child understands is... dncngrose: no stability found in any relationship tichure: yes Rose dncngrose: they question everything AshReed69: so for him lots of this poem could represent many things AshReed69: he was famous for that AshReed69: water tichure: the only thing a 2-year-old child knows it is what or whom AshReed69: the boat AshReed69: the statue; light; woman; AshReed69: and that it wants now dncngrose: mom and dad? QuietAvngr: who really loves him tichure: yes arose tichure: yes avenger tichure: according to psycho analytical theory, because of the loss of his mother at that age, he will never get beyond that growth stage AshReed69: so would we look for double meanings in symbols with this perspective QuietAvngr: and if his mother died when he was only two, then he may have thought that all people who loved him were going to die tichure: yes tichure: yes tichure: a self-fulfilling prophecy AshReed69: thats good tichure: in a way QuietAvngr: because you don't expect too much out of life tichure: the whole purpose behind psychoanalytical criticism is to evaluate the confessional nature of art AshReed69: and it also shows him as the traveler which runs from this AshReed69: even though it is something he longs for tichure: does this poem reflect that avenger dncngrose: he cant hold onto anything for fear it will disappear tichure: yes Rose... does the poem reflect that tichure: we always wanna bring it back to the primary source QuietAvngr: yes tichure: always tichure: this is something to keep in mind with all the criticisms especially biographical historical tichure: there is a great deal of information about authors and their time periods, but we are only interested in what applies to the primary source at hand tichure: in other words, only include what applies to the work being described tichure: and so with feminist or psychoanalytical criticism, or any criticism, as soon as we come up with an idea, we will go back to the primary source to try to apply it dncngrose: you mean what is said literally? AshReed69: so On desperate seas long wont - desire- to roam is about him having that intense desire to run away from his own fears... to numb himself with long drawn out travels never really to return home Wormstheword: the poem only reflects a want towards something like love QuietAvngr: ok, but are we assuming that the audience knows nothing about the writer's background? tichure: warm, is there hope or desperation? tichure: avenger, when you do a psychoanalytical criticism on the author, you must include biographical information as support AshReed69: i'd say both AshReed69: for him AshReed69: always that hope that one day it will be different Wormstheword: i read it as a need AshReed69: that is shown by the end of the poem AshReed69: with the light at the end of the tunnel sort of speak QuietAvngr: and then we apply the bio info to the piece tichure: in fact, folks, from this point forward, I expect you to do a biographical and historical crit just to start the conversation unless you're doing formalist AshReed69: but he's not there yet tichure: gas tichure: yes AshReed69: still moving toward it AshReed69: slowly AshReed69: still in fear of it tichure: Willie ever get their ash AshReed69: no tichure: well, it's phonetic anyway AshReed69: :-):-) tichure: finally tichure: feminist AshReed69: no.... it would have showed that in the poem AshReed69: hey now AshReed69: feminist tichure: what does he due to the image of women in his poem AshReed69: edify their beauty tichure: to what extent... to a result tichure: ? Wormstheword: an untouchable quality QuietAvngr: he worships them AshReed69: but also their unavailability tichure: to what results tichure: is it realistic tichure: is it flattering AshReed69: yes to him tichure: is its stereotypical Wormstheword: of course QuietAvngr: to the point where it does not exist tichure: to us AshReed69: flattering in some ways to the woman tichure: to women QuietAvngr: even today, yes dncngrose: they are beautified beyond his imagination QuietAvngr: to THAT woman tichure: does he mention anything about her intellect QuietAvngr: nope eeyore fan 023: no AshReed69: I think it is more like their beauty is beyond something that he will ever have Wormstheword: no, it is a man describing an image of a externally beautiful woman tichure: to him all she is is... QuietAvngr: and by today's standards, not flattering QuietAvngr: a body Wormstheword: beauty QuietAvngr: a face AshReed69: because the most beautiful thing in his life died on him QuietAvngr: but no mind dncngrose: they don't exist until he makes them up AshReed69: no tichure: why avenger eeyore fan 023: a symbol, like helen of troy. tichure: yes avenger tichure: U.S. rose QuietAvngr: they are only images AshReed69: helen of troy was very intelligent woman tichure: yes rose AshReed69: he could have used someone else tichure: yes fan dncngrose: just a goddess of beauty, no more tichure: where did you get that ash AshReed69: to represent one with no mind AshReed69: where QuietAvngr: but she wasn't known for that, only her beauty AshReed69: oh AshReed69: ok tichure: I've read the Iliad and the Odyssey AshReed69: i did too AshReed69: in philosophy tichure: I do not remember any discussion of her intelligence eeyore fan 023: so have I they were great to read. AshReed69: i had to do a bio on her tichure: in fact, consider the context AshReed69: and it showed that she was the one many times who plotted war plans tichure: in the war, what was her position QuietAvngr: she was the trophy QuietAvngr: wasn't she? tichure: would that be seen as a good thing at the time ash tichure: yes avenger AshReed69: not for the man AshReed69: no tichure: would a plotting woman be seen as a good thing AshReed69: but than most woman showed more intelligence in the affairs of war AshReed69: not necessarily tichure: feminist criticism takes into account the intent of a work when it is advantageous to show that the work was designed to do mean or simplify women AshReed69: woman still were not equals unless they are in power of some sort AshReed69: such as Cleopatra tichure: it does not take into account intent when it would comply that there was no harm meant tichure: Cleopatra is an excellent example of a woman who was seen as beautiful, but whose intelligence was held against her tichure: in fact, what was her greatest coup? Wormstheword: anthony dncngrose: men AshReed69: in this art work poe used helen of troy as the symbol of beauty untouchability being aloof..... tichure: how did she get him AshReed69: passion for power and to dominate men Wormstheword: seduction tichure: using her intelligence AshReed69: very much the seductress dncngrose: trickery AshReed69: on the boat AshReed69: she wrapped herself AshReed69: in gold silk AshReed69: and had him unravel her dncngrose: her beauty was enough AshReed69: he was doomed from that moment on AshReed69: had to be more than just beauty for anthony tichure: intelligent or conniving according to critics and writers and thinkers tichure: of the time AshReed69: who AshReed69: cleopatra or helen tichure: Cleopatra or Helen tichure: any intelligent woman AshReed69: lol tichure: who was able to manipulate other people AshReed69: most woman were considered deviant AshReed69: manipulative tichure: devious? tichure: or deviant? AshReed69: men were obsessed with them and so it was deemed that they had possessed them tichure: heheh AshReed69: haha AshReed69: deviant AshReed69: or both AshReed69: lol dncngrose: definitely dncngrose: both dncngrose: beauty always helps though tichure: ash, when you who put such analysis into modern context, you're actually doing an entirely different criticism called new historicism AshReed69: i am AshReed69: whoo whoo AshReed69: :-) tichure: new historicism takes all work and ignores the values and morés of the time it was written, and instead reads the work and evaluates it from the modern era AshReed69: oh AshReed69: and that is what i do AshReed69: cool AshReed69: not trying to though tichure: unfortunately for you, ash, your next paper draft will involve feminist or psychoanalytical criticism AshReed69: trying to be the feminist AshReed69: great AshReed69: thanks AshReed69: this is why i have a hard time in english writing classes Wormstheword has left the room. tichure: choose one of those tichure: we will discuss death of a salesman next week tichure: and then we will begin talking about the papers AshReed69: great.................... i get so lost in the focus of things that when i think i'm on the right track.... whamoo...... there goes the freight train tichure: what I want you to do is to read death of the salesman and then read some biographical information tichure: we will do biographical tichure: historical tichure: feminist tichure: and psychoanalytical criticism on this work AshReed69: ok AshReed69: is there a site for clear definitions between them all AshReed69: and descriptions dncngrose: wow. all in an hour and a half tichure: yes arose QuietAvngr: they're in your book tichure: I am an optimist AshReed69: where avenger dncngrose: sounds good tichure: yes avenger tichure: in the back of the book AshReed69: thanks AshReed69: found it AshReed69: duh tichure: there also explained on the Web site QuietAvngr: in the back, i'll find the page Wormstheword has entered the room. tichure: there are also linked from the Internet reading list tichure: to other sites at other colleges AshReed69: ok tichure: so if you don't like my explanation tichure: and you don't like the books explanation AshReed69: i'll get cracking and impress you with my intelligence next week AshReed69: :-) AshReed69: :-* tichure: that maybe you'll like penn states explanation tichure: please be aware that when you change criticism you can change the meaning of a work tichure: and therefore you need to distinguish between the criticisms and label them clearly so I know you know what you're talking about tichure: there will be times when to criticisms, feminist and psychoanalytical, revealed the same response tichure: but they come from a different angle AshReed69: ok tichure: it's like a tree in the middle of a long highway tichure: no matter which we were driving tichure: we're going to hit it AshReed69: hahahahaha tichure: but we may not be on the same side of the tree AshReed69: lmao tichure: any questions AshReed69: yeah AshReed69: cant we just write some poems instead tichure: no AshReed69: :-( AshReed69: i tried dncngrose: so we can just choose one or does it have to be all? tichure: but later on, when someone explains to you your own psycho sees based on your work, you'll know where they got those ideas tichure: one rose tichure: feminist or psychoanalytical AshReed69: lol dncngrose: thats what i thought tichure: but I do expect you to do some biographical research as well AshReed69: so we are reading death of a salesman dncngrose: of course tichure: in fact, on both of these authors biographical and historical research will help you a great deal AshReed69: and doing research AshReed69: only on him tichure: for next week yes tichure: the papers are not on death of a salesman tichure: we'll use that to practice AshReed69: ok dncngrose: yes, that's me. its a long one too tichure: any other questions tichure: yes Rose dncngrose: no eeyore fan 023: does anyone know the phone number for the testing center? AshReed69: are you going to post these tichure: it is on the Web site dncngrose: its on the message board tichure: post what? AshReed69: its on the website eeyore fan 023: thanks AshReed69: and what perspective we will use tichure: yes ash tichure: it will be posted by tomorrow AshReed69: ok tichure: such a helpful group AshReed69: :-) AshReed69: oh eeyore fan 023: thanks rose AshReed69: and for those that are here AshReed69: i have posted study chat times for us AshReed69: some want to add other times and days AshReed69: so you need to let me know AshReed69: right now its monday and wednesday AshReed69: from 7-9ish AshReed69: all posted on message board dncngrose: mr e, are we done for tonight? tichure: anything else? tichure: yes Rose AshReed69: bye rose dncngrose: goodnight everyone!! see you next week tichure: by Rose eeyore fan 023: see ya QuietAvngr: bye tichure: by fan tichure: by avenger eeyore fan 023: by Mr. E AshReed69: bye all.................................. AshReed69: by mr. e Wormstheword: bye tichure: by ash AshReed69: and thank you for your time tichure: by worm AshReed69: and all around wisdom dncngrose has left the room. eeyore fan 023 has left the room. QuietAvngr has left the room. Wormstheword has left the room. AshReed69 has left the room. tichure: (((looking around bewildered)))) tichure: poof