POE, FEM, GEN
You have just entered room "tichure Chat02."

PinkkLady1 has entered the room.

Tiffa028 has entered the room.

PinkkLady1: hello

Tiffa028: hello all

tichure: hey now

PinkkLady1: should we dilly dally till others arrive.

PinkkLady1: i hope everyone had a great day

Tiffa028: i finally found out what "come together" was about

tichure: great

tichure: can you explain it to ME?

PinkkLady1: watch out.... 

PinkkLady1: :-)

Tiffa028: haha.....well, this is what my music teach told me...

PinkkLady1: come together as one?

Tiffa028: every time the song refers to "he", it's talking about Lennon....

tichure: hmmm

tichure: actually, flattop with juju eyeballs is 

tichure: j edgar hoover

Tiffa028: really.....well, he said lennon

Tiffa028: and it's about his funeral

PinkkLady1: at our school this teacher ??

tichure: who had a dossier on lennon and had him kicked out of usa because he though 
lennon was a commie

Tiffa028: *ahhhhh* now you tell me after the paper is turned in.....:'(

Tiffa028: and the part were it sounds like...."shomp"....it's actually saying "shoot me"

Tiffa028: crazy song.....but nice beat

tichure: at his real problem was that, along with Nixon, he felt that lennon was part of a 
movement in America to overthrow the United States government through protest

Tiffa028: i see......wow lots of hidden messages in that song

PinkkLady1: songs are so more than they appear its bitchen

PinkkLady1: i mean its symbolic

PinkkLady1: :-)

Tiffa028: i know

tichure: I haven't heard bitchin since 1978

tichure: when used as an adjective

tichure: hehehe

Tiffa028: haha

tichure: nice to see it come back

PinkkLady1: ashreed69 needs nn invite mr e

tichure: last week we discussed feminist and formalist criticism

PinkkLady1: i think she just got booted

tichure: so let's do some review

tichure: biographical criticism

tichure: author's life as a reflection in the work

tichure: historical criticism

tichure: the time and place to work was written or refers to as reflected in the work

tichure: feminist criticism...

MatrixLady007 has entered the room.

PinkkLady1: womans  point of view

tichure: a  criticism based onthe perception that most works are written by, about, and for men

tichure: lady, in some ways yes

tichure: but in this class I want you to focus on gender criticism

tichure: heh

Tiffa028: lol

Tiffa028: someones hungry

Tiffa028: :-)

PinkkLady1: as in from each point the diff sexes?

tichure: you will analyze how men and women are portrayed...whether the author tends to 
portray one gender or another or both as stereotypical or not

PinkkLady1: i need to get my notes....2 secs.

tichure: formalist criticism

tichure: formalist criticism is limited to the work itself, ignoring all the other factors, including 
author, history, or reader impact

Tiffa028 has left the room.

PinkkLady1: like non emotional straight facts right

tichure: yes lady

PinkkLady1: im off 

PinkkLady1: bitchen:-) its one of my fav word 

PinkkLady1: cant help to use it

AshReed69 has entered the room.

AshReed69: Yeah

AshReed69: I'm finally in

AshReed69: yeah

PinkkLady1: hello 

tichure: okay

AshReed69: hello destiny and pinkk....

MatrixLady007: hi

Tiffa028 has entered the room.

AshReed69: so what is the topic for the evening

PinkkLady1: back to formalist criticism

tichure: thank you Lady

AshReed69: formalist criticism

PinkkLady1: were just reviewing

AshReed69: ok

PinkkLady1: she's right here

AshReed69: so are we doing page review

PinkkLady1: ?

Tiffa028 has left the room.

tichure: I'm still inviting people

Wormstheword has entered the room.

AshReed69: ok

PinkkLady1: i hope alot of people show up tonight

tichure: let's look at to Helen by Edgar Allan Poe

PinkkLady1: k

tichure: from a formalist perspective, what is this poem about

PinkkLady1: pg 911

AshReed69: yeah

tichure: remember, formalist is limited only to what is on the page

AshReed69: my favorite

PinkkLady1: she misses her dude

AshReed69: i remeber that from last time

AshReed69: sure we couldnt start with feminism this time

AshReed69: :-)

PinkkLady1: shes waiting for him

tichure: lady

Wormstheword: i see it as a love poem

tichure: does the poem have anything into about the woman's emotion

MatrixLady007: no

PinkkLady1: but they areed apart

tichure: from whose perspective worm

MatrixLady007: its Poe's pers.

tichure: try again matrix

AshReed69: its an honoring poem

PinkkLady1: shes tired

tichure: from formalist perspective, we ignore who the author is

PinkkLady1: wait no

AshReed69: not from the womans emotions no.... just the mans... the one dedicating it to her

Wormstheword: it could be anybody

tichure: who is speaking in the pollen

tichure: in the poem

tichure: too broad worm

AshReed69: a man

AshReed69: is speaking

Wormstheword: a man

PinkkLady1: a man 

MatrixLady007: man

tichure: okay

PinkkLady1: sailor/ or traveler?

AshReed69: an emperor or soldier of high standing

tichure: a man who what?

tichure: why Lady

MatrixLady007: sailor

tichure: why read

tichure: why matrix

tichure: how you know

PinkkLady1: because of him wandering and going to his native shore

tichure: what tells you those things

MatrixLady007: because he talks about the sea

tichure: good lady

Wormstheword: sailor because of the comparisons to the sea 

tichure: good matrix

tichure: good worm

tichure: what else do we know

AshReed69: because he talks how the Naiad airs have brought him home To the glory that was 
Greece

tichure: is their hope?

MatrixLady007: he's got a thing for greek mythology

tichure: is greece mentioned specifically

PinkkLady1: he was away and came back to greece and saw the figure

MatrixLady007: yes

PinkkLady1: the helen of troy statue

AshReed69: only high society men had the time to have the luxuries as to daydream and discuss the gods/goddess

tichure: is there hope expressed in this poem

Wormstheword: we know he really misses her and her images is what is making him hold on

AshReed69: ok

AshReed69: is there hope in the poem

PinkkLady1: ya he sees an image familar of home

PinkkLady1: means he's almost there gives you hope

AshReed69: yes

AshReed69: Lo!.... window-niche

tichure: lady, is Helen of troy mentioned specifically in the text of the poem

AshReed69: .... the agate lamp wi/in they hand!

AshReed69: it is a symbol to him

PinkkLady1: like she waits for her hubby too

MatrixLady007: helen is mentioned but not specifically helen of troy

PinkkLady1: greece and helen we associate right?

AshReed69: not in the actually poem at least

tichure: AshReed69: only high society men had the time to have the luxuries as to daydream and discuss the gods/goddess.. is this a reference to a particular time

PinkkLady1: its in line 1

tichure: it is important that in formalist criticism that you cannot add anything the author does not

PinkkLady1: mention of helen

AshReed69: yes

AshReed69: when it says to the glory that was Greece and the grandeur that was Rome

tichure: if Helen of Troy is specifically mentioned, then we can follow that route

PinkkLady1: its no opinions straight facts and what's there

tichure: if not, we cannot

PinkkLady1: it is line one helen the beauty is to me

AshReed69: and the mention of Helen shows a certain era of pre christian

MatrixLady007: so we cannot

tichure: correct, lady

AshReed69: to praise a statue of helen

PinkkLady1: not praised she was worshiped  like a goddess right?

AshReed69: yes

AshReed69: i think so

PinkkLady1: k

MatrixLady007: there is a description but not a direct mention of helen of TROY

AshReed69: adored

PinkkLady1: no but greece makes you associate the two

MatrixLady007: just of some chick named helen

MatrixLady007: thats all the read knows

MatrixLady007: reader

tichure: good point matrix

AshReed69: it is the language used as well

Wormstheword: this woman holds the beauty and strength of helen of troy

tichure: lady, Greece makes YOU link the 2

PinkkLady1: classic face, hyacinth hair

tichure: you are putting your own experience into the work

PinkkLady1: oops

MatrixLady007: but there is no specific mention of the city TROY

AshReed69: "like those Nicean barks of yore../ Thy Naiad airs have brought me home

tichure: worm, doesn't mention Helen of Troy or are you filling in the gaps

MatrixLady007: so we cannot correctly connect the two

AshReed69: Naiad are mythological nymphs of the waters

tichure: does it

Wormstheword: the images make us see a greek beauty

tichure: yes....

tichure: they make you see Greek beauty

tichure: what if I don't know anything about Greece

MatrixLady007: then u have no clue

PinkkLady1: she's a classic figure 

PinkkLady1: statue like

tichure: what would I see the poem

tichure: exactly lady

tichure:  is

tichure: matrix

MatrixLady007: but if you knew nothing of greece and this helen of troy then when you read this 
poem you would think it is about some girlie named helen

MatrixLady007: you wouldn't connect the 2

PinkkLady1: a man who is away from his love who is coming home?

tichure: likely matrix

tichure: exactly yes lady

PinkkLady1: bitchen :-)

tichure: boss

PinkkLady1: and she is awaiting him with the lights on

tichure: GROOVY

PinkkLady1: boss...lmao

PinkkLady1: sorry

MatrixLady007: lol

tichure: the whole purpose of formalist criticism is to force the reader to not translate the work for the writer

MatrixLady007: but to take it as it is given

PinkkLady1: i struggle i always throw my  2 cents in

MatrixLady007: given*

tichure: you must this associate yourself from making connections because formalist criticism requires that the reader only take what is literally on the written page

tichure: and not to add anything else

tichure: even if it is logical

PinkkLady1: just the words no more---got it

AshReed69: very good lady

tichure: that is it

MatrixLady007: so no analysis

MatrixLady007: analysis bad

tichure: not exactly

tichure: we still would decide what is there literally, using common symbols and other factors

PinkkLady1: hey ash im actually getting it and feeling soooooo good//sorry

tichure: it is clear in this poem that this is a poem about a person who misses this woman

tichure: is there some kind of inference that they will get together

PinkkLady1: associating words and such right?

tichure: in the poem

MatrixLady007: shes probably dead

tichure: yes lady

PinkkLady1: he can see her in the window hes almost there

MatrixLady007: oh nm

tichure: matrix, what tells you that

PinkkLady1: shes standing cant be dead right

MatrixLady007: How Statue-like I see theee stand

Wormstheword: her described images are almost spiritual

PinkkLady1: and holding a lamp

MatrixLady007: shes probably a corpse

tichure: do corpses stand

AshReed69: not dead

AshReed69: i think she is a statue by the reference and not someone real

MatrixLady007: lol

AshReed69: a symbol of home

PinkkLady1: she is as beautiful as a perfect statue

PinkkLady1: to him 

tichure: there are two distinct translations here

PinkkLady1: and she awaits him after his long journey

tichure: one is that this is. about a statue

AshReed69: her beauty to symbolize all that he left behind and what he looks forward to coming 
home to

tichure: the other is that this is about a person who is standing still

tichure: which seems more likely from a formalist perspective

tichure: ?

PinkkLady1: person standing still

tichure: why Lady

tichure: why not the statue

AshReed69: are we to look for symbols in the poem

PinkkLady1: he observes her from a far

tichure: yes ash

PinkkLady1: has no way of  knowing 

AshReed69: ok

Wormstheword: her standing still makes us see her permanent wait for him

PinkkLady1: i mean we cant assume their lover

PinkkLady1: never mind

tichure: why not lady

eeyore fan 023 has entered the room.

tichure: there is a certain amount of loyalty there, worm

PinkkLady1: he sees her from afar. we don't even know she knows him right?

tichure: hey now fan

eeyore fan 023: yea, I made it

tichure: that's correct lady

PinkkLady1: he could be a perv stalker

MatrixLady007: yikes

tichure: is that in the poem or is that you speaking lady

Wormstheword: she holds the lamp to the sea and waits for him to arrive

AshReed69: so Nicean barks of yore = 

PinkkLady1: sorry

AshReed69: is the comparison to the city afar.... a place he is thinking of

PinkkLady1: NOT FORMAlist :-)

tichure: yes ash

PinkkLady1: good job ash :-)

tichure: yes worm

tichure: very good

AshReed69: a perfumed sea is the sweet smell of home

eeyore fan 023: sorry, which poem are you talking about?

Wormstheword: and her

tichure: to Helen

PinkkLady1: he was way tired from traveling or sailing

MatrixLady007: hellen by poe

AshReed69: weary wayworn wanderer shows he has been gone a long time..traveling far

MatrixLady007: pg 911

tichure: Edgar Allan Poe

PinkkLady1: to Helen pg 911

eeyore fan 023: thank you

tichure: yes ash

tichure: yes lady

tichure: are we sick a formalist yet

MatrixLady007: yup

tichure: one last question

tichure: does the poem imply that he will actually get to see her

tichure: from a formalist perspective

AshReed69: on ...seas long wont to roam.... i think this is he has a love for the sea but tires of it....  cant remember what wont means 

MatrixLady007: no

MatrixLady007: its almost as if he lost her

tichure: is it optimistic or not

MatrixLady007: nope

MatrixLady007: kinda sad

tichure: what tells you that matrix

PinkkLady1: yes he sees the light isnt that symbolic

AshReed69: the description of Helen is more than just the statue but what she represents to him and what he remembers his home to be

tichure: wont means desire, yearning, yen, need

MatrixLady007: the word usage: ie: desperate etc

AshReed69: thought so

AshReed69: wasnt sure

tichure: Lady symbolic of what

AshReed69: so that would be his desire for home

tichure: yes --

tichure: ash

tichure: yes

PinkkLady1: light on someone's home

AshReed69: and the description of the statue is his remembrance with more

PinkkLady1: sorry no not formalist cancel

tichure: actually, seas long wont to roam means...

AshReed69: edifying his homeland as being better than any place that the sea has to offer

tichure: possibly ash, why does not stay there

tichure: seas long wont to roam

PinkkLady1: no its better than the sea

tichure: this gets back to identify who speaker is

AshReed69: it seems that he is a traveler of some sort and possibly a soldier

tichure: why doesn't he just stay home

PinkkLady1: the guy on the boat

tichure: yes ash

Wormstheword: a lonely seaman

tichure:  yes worm

tichure: ...

AshReed69: because of duty

AshReed69: in roman / greek times that was a serious thing

tichure: according to the poem, his nature is to Roam...even if he feels lonely

tichure: ash,  you are mentioning historical context

AshReed69: and duty was honorable no matter how much you dont want to go

AshReed69: not lonely seaman

AshReed69: he talks about " To the glory that was Greece

PinkkLady1: just the facts maaam :-0

Wormstheword: it sounds as if he had no choice but to be away from home

PinkkLady1: :-)

tichure: one thing about formalist context is that it makes the work transcend time

tichure: since Greece still exists

PinkkLady1: DESPERATE SEAS ROAM. HE HAS TOO

tichure: we don't necessarily have to apply to ancient Greece

PinkkLady1: OOPS sorry for caps

AshReed69: am i

AshReed69: is that a bad thing

AshReed69: ok.......... so stay away from historical context

AshReed69: wwwwwwwwwhhhhhhhhhhhhooooooooooooooooooooooo

tichure: if you're doing formalist perspective, stay away from historical

tichure: however,

tichure: now let's do historical

PinkkLady1: nice mr e real nice :-)

tichure: what time period  Is alluded to

PinkkLady1: keep us on our toes

AshReed69: mr. e

AshReed69: ok

AshReed69: historical

tichure: exactly

tichure: go ahead ash

QuietAvngr has entered the room.

tichure: lay it on us

AshReed69: hello avenger

PinkkLady1: go ash go ash 

PinkkLady1: sorry im a dork

PinkkLady1: since we could scroll up and reread what you said before :-)

QuietAvngr: hello

PinkkLady1: ancient greece

PinkkLady1: oops

tichure: there is another aspect to the historical

tichure: besides  nike, who else is mentioned in the poem

tichure: look at the end

MatrixLady007: its kind of got that gladiator feel to it

QuietAvngr: Psyche

tichure: explained matrix

tichure: meaning what avenger

AshReed69 has left the room.

PinkkLady1: im not getting it

tichure: from that perspective alone, avenger, where does this Helen exist?

MatrixLady007: the language, the description of this woman, a man who seems to be a solider 
type

QuietAvngr: in terms of history?

tichure: who was psyche

tichure: what does psyche refer to

MatrixLady007: this guys soul

QuietAvngr: a figure in Greek mythology

AshReed69 has entered the room.

QuietAvngr: yes, soul

AshReed69: craaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.....................uuddddd

tichure: literally, yes avenger

dncngrose has entered the room.

QuietAvngr: that he needs her for his soul to exist

AshReed69: right in the middle of a thought 

QuietAvngr: or continue on

tichure: figuratively yes matrix

PinkkLady1: how

dncngrose: sorry im late, what page is it on?

PinkkLady1: 911

tichure: ash, explain to us the historical context of the Trojan war

dncngrose: didn't we do that one last week?

AshReed69: ok

tichure: I'm not sure rose

tichure: we are doing it now, nonetheless

dncngrose: ooopss sorry, wrong one

Wormstheword: using ancient greece gives us the sense of romanticism

AshReed69: the historical context of the Trojan war is about Helen of Troy and how she fell for someone not of troy

tichure: yes worm

Wormstheword: strong men, beautiful women.

AshReed69: she was the most beautiful woman in all the lands to see

tichure: What does it add the poem, worm and ash

AshReed69: that is how the war was started is because her husband (i think) was jealous

AshReed69: and the man from the other team fell in love with helen

AshReed69: and how that adds to the poem is

tichure: when was this poem written

AshReed69: That it was her beauty that kept men close to her

AshReed69: they couldn't get enough of her essence

AshReed69: and so

AshReed69: the guy in the poem is relating in the same way

Wormstheword: we can see the beauty of the woman by the historical context we know from 
studying ancient greece

QuietAvngr: in a way, it makes the poem universal

AshReed69: it is what helen represented

AshReed69: and what her statue does now for this traveler

AshReed69: ???

Wormstheword: it is a place that is almost mystical and makes us use our imagination towards 
beauty

PinkkLady1: 1820 or so

PinkkLady1: sorry for that was scrolling up

AshReed69: earlier than that i would say pinkklady

tichure: yes worm

tichure: ash, what it does this woman in Poem do for this speaker

tichure: applied to the imagery of Helen of Troy

PinkkLady1: i meant when it was written

tichure: specifically

tichure: the date should be right at the end of Poem

QuietAvngr: he makes her the epitome of beauty

tichure: yes avenger

QuietAvngr: 1831-1843

MatrixLady007: 1831-43

dncngrose: he has something to call his own

tichure: some of you may know the answer to the following question: what major 
philosophical/medical approach was created in the 1800s

PinkkLady1: i suck at history---its sad

MatrixLady007: i have no clue

QuietAvngr: lobotomy?

AshReed69 has left the room.

tichure: you're on the right track avenger

dncngrose: you mean a drug?

PinkkLady1: what about surgical practices----

PinkkLady1: embalming?

tichure: treatment

tichure: for emotional disorders

PinkkLady1: prozac

tichure: very famous guy

PinkkLady1: sorry

PinkkLady1: freud

tichure: yes

MatrixLady007: hes a crack head

MatrixLady007: sorry

tichure: he created something called psychoanalysis

PinkkLady1: bo hes very sexual

tichure: he didn't smoke cocaine

MatrixLady007: i know

tichure: he gave it to his patients

PinkkLady1: lmao

PinkkLady1: oh my god

MatrixLady007: crack head as in psycho

PinkkLady1: i got it matrix:-)

tichure: this gets back to the last lines of the poem

MatrixLady007: hahahahaha

QuietAvngr: he was suffering without her

dncngrose: so hes a crackhead, the speaker?

MatrixLady007: psyche the term is a Freudian term

tichure: who does poe allude to?

tichure: yes matrix

tichure: no rose

Wormstheword: she will always be waiting 

tichure: you're taking your fellow students too literally

QuietAvngr: was i totally wrong?

dncngrose: im lost. 

PinkkLady1: and always beautiful

tichure: remember, worm that this is written from the man's perspective

Wormstheword: he knows she will always be waiting

QuietAvngr: he needs her, emotionally

tichure: will he ever really meet this woman

PinkkLady1: no

tichure: will he always be waiting

tichure: why not lady

dncngrose: so he's just idolizing about what he wants?

QuietAvngr: no, because she only exists in his mind

PinkkLady1: she doesn't really exist?

Wormstheword: in his dreams

tichure: when he refers to psyche, what does that tell us

QuietAvngr: as i said...

tichure: yes

PinkkLady1: hes nuts

tichure: yes

tichure: yes

tichure: yes

dncngrose: hes always dreaming

tichure: maybe not nuts

PinkkLady1: in la la land

tichure: but certainly focused

PinkkLady1: :-)

Wormstheword: her image gives him hope

tichure: tried to avoid slang 

tichure: its imprecise

tichure: well,

PinkkLady1: sorry mr e

tichure: let's look at biographical

dncngrose: he doesn't know what's real

tichure: what was poe's experience with women

MatrixLady007: a sad one

Wormstheword: bad, they died?

tichure: actually, Rose, I would say that he is admitting that this person exists in his mind

MatrixLady007: all the women seem to have left

PinkkLady1: could symbolize time in service when on the sea

dncngrose: no one to compare

tichure: be specific folks

tichure: did he go to sea?

tichure: what happened to his mother

PinkkLady1: nope oops

PinkkLady1: she dies

PinkkLady1: died

tichure: how

Wormstheword: maybe Poe is saying he feels lost at sea

PinkkLady1: not sure

tichure: what happened to his adoptive mother

tichure: what happened to his wife

dncngrose: well he was in the army, maybe he  was at sea

tichure: what happened to his friend's mother

PinkkLady1: all of them died

tichure: he washed out of West Point

tichure: mother and wife died of tuberculosis

QuietAvngr: wasn't this written for his friend's mother?

tichure: strangled to death on their own blood

QuietAvngr: she died at an early age

tichure: yes avenger

QuietAvngr: from cancer, i think

tichure: what is poe's experience generally with women

Wormstheword: all of the women he loved left, know he can only know them in spirit

tichure: applied to the poem

QuietAvngr: they all die on him!

PinkkLady1: negative. unfulfilled.

PinkkLady1: lost

tichure: worm is on the right track

dncngrose: he imagined how they were like

tichure: lady yes

tichure: rose does he ever really get close

dncngrose: i dont think he had enough time

tichure: good point

PinkkLady1: he loves but always looses them too soon

dncngrose: he was busy doing other things

tichure: yes lady

tichure: is that reflected in the poem

PinkkLady1: i think he was young and was 

QuietAvngr: he was at sea

Wormstheword: never close which is maybe why in the poem the comparison is made to being at 
sea while the women are on land

tichure: the phrase "at sea" or "asea"

dncngrose: maybe he was always depressed, thats why he wrote

tichure: refers to

dncngrose: i mean sulked

QuietAvngr: not really here. lost, trying to find meaning in life

PinkkLady1: in your own world. like locked in your own head.

eeyore fan 023: yes, he seems to be the man in the sea, looking at a women, or imagining a 
women he cannot have, but sees in his mind.

tichure: Rose, you are correct, but we want to try to apply to the imagery specifically in the poem

tichure: yes avenger

tichure: yes fan

PinkkLady1: he is searching for a permanent love.

PinkkLady1: so he creates one

tichure: does he think he will find her

tichure: according to the poem

QuietAvngr: yes

PinkkLady1: no

tichure:  is there hope in the Poem, knowing who the author is

QuietAvngr: in the last stanza, he sees her, waiting for him

tichure: there seems to be a bit of disagreement

Wormstheword: statue like could also mean dead like, like not really a true person, just a spirit to hold on to

dncngrose: he was always "weary" to his own native shore

PinkkLady1: no 

tichure: but can he get there avenger

QuietAvngr: "statue-like", holding an agate lamp

dncngrose: i dont think he wants to literally see her

tichure: explain rose

QuietAvngr: no, that is why he cries out to his soul

tichure: what would happen if he actually met her

dncngrose: his image of her is enough 

tichure: so, avenger, will his wish be fulfilled

PinkkLady1: would not know what to do since lack of experience

QuietAvngr: i think so

QuietAvngr: well...

dncngrose: this feeling has brought him "home"

PinkkLady1: i think he is struggling 

PinkkLady1: within himself his psyche

dncngrose: i dont think he wants anymore than he says

QuietAvngr: if "helen" are the important women in his life, and they are dead, then he will meet 
them in death

tichure: tichure: but can he get there avenger

tichure: QuietAvngr: no, that is why he cries out to his soul

PinkkLady1: he longs for it but also scared 

tichure: an interesting approach avenger

QuietAvngr: okay, then he won't

tichure: heheh

QuietAvngr: well, he won't be alive

tichure: I am merely reporting what you said

tichure: that would be different

PinkkLady1: mr e always on top 

eeyore fan 023: he is afraid to love again, for fear that anyone he loves will die.

QuietAvngr: i know, and i'm contradicting myself

PinkkLady1: scared of all relationships

PinkkLady1: scared of the constant hurting/

MatrixLady007: good bye everyone <<>>

tichure: avenger, as long you support your analysis you should be correct

Wormstheword: he has an easier time loving from "sea" than having it right in front of him

tichure: but if you contradict yourself, we will have problems

tichure: why worm

MatrixLady007 has left the room.

Wormstheword: from fear of losing what he loves

AshReed69 has entered the room.

tichure: are you saying he is somehow happy being sad

AshReed69: *******************************"''''''''//////////Kaboom Computer///////////////""""""

PinkkLady1: hes sad because he wants love but something bad always happens

Wormstheword: sadness is all he knows when he gains nothing in true love

tichure: this is important

dncngrose: he doesn't want to feel alone, that's why he's weeping for her

tichure: for our next critical approach

tichure: psycho analytical criticism

PinkkLady1: yikes

tichure: psycho analytical criticism is a criticism based on one of two major factors

tichure: the first use the author using Freudian slips to have characters reveal hidden aspects of themselves

AshReed69: what in the world is psycho analytical criticism

AshReed69: and the second

PinkkLady1: i hope i remember psych 101 lol

tichure: the second is the critic analyzing the author, looking for revelations about the author's own psyche hidden in the work itself

AshReed69: oh boy

PinkkLady1: oh my god

AshReed69: your kidding right

AshReed69: lol

tichure: and if we decide that this speaker is poe

AshReed69: mr. e

PinkkLady1: mr e does not kid about english :-)

AshReed69: who was a nutty guy as it is

dncngrose: dont understand part 2

AshReed69: dont i know it

PinkkLady1: lol :-)

tichure: and we decide that he is sad, and yet is comfortable with the sadness, revels in the 
sadness

tichure: we are doing psycho analytical criticism

tichure: warm basically said that the speaker, Poe, only knows sadness

AshReed69: comfortable with the sadness would mean that he is either secure with his feelings

AshReed69: or 

tichure: and therefore there is a certain comfort in what he knows

PinkkLady1: okay- i don't think he's okay with being sad. I think he just accepts it like it okay normal

tichure: and therefore if he were ever to meet any of these women

AshReed69: there is no other comfort but the sadness

tichure: he wouldn't know what to do

tichure: again, Lady, is poes experience normal

PinkkLady1: life--- losing partners yes some people are really really unlucky-

Wormstheword: i think Poe would know what to do but never act upon it

tichure: is that kind of loss and longing normal

PinkkLady1: no

PinkkLady1: to him yes

PinkkLady1: to me no

AshReed69: so what your trying to say if i am interpreting this correctly is that ?? women are so out of reach for this man that in their presence he would crumble

dncngrose: no but he doesn't  know normal

tichure: as with all of those criticisms, we must be very careful not to read too much in, and we must look for substantiation in the text as well as in the authors biography

AshReed69: i'm lost

tichure: it is because of criticisms like feminist and psychoanalytical that formalist was created

PinkkLady1: base it on him only right?

dncngrose: you mean like the formalist approach

tichure: the formalist basically said that critics are reading too much into the material

AshReed69: ok

AshReed69: yeah

tichure: yes Rose

PinkkLady1 has left the room.

tichure: but psychoanalytical news important because it carries with the an understanding that  artists create art to express themselves and expressed their souls

AshReed69: what are we looking for in this poem mr. e

tichure: we would be looking for poe

dncngrose: his biography

Wormstheword: almost like their form of therapy

tichure: does Poe's life fit the profile of the speaker of the poem

dncngrose: yes

Wormstheword: somewhat

dncngrose: suffer a lost

dncngrose: a loss

dncngrose: its a very sad poem

AshReed69: Edgar Allen Poe lost his mother when he was 2

tichure: is his experience and life perspective revealed in the poem

AshReed69: and was raised without his sibling

AshReed69: and had tough life choices growing up

dncngrose: not in the poem

tichure: who also happened to be a girl

tichure: rose, generally?

AshReed69: definitely in the poem

Wormstheword: seeing the woman from afar...yes

AshReed69: he never knew his mother

tichure: we're not looking for direct biography

AshReed69: and so could represent

tichure: ash, she died in front of him

AshReed69: what she meant to him

tichure: yes

AshReed69: an idol

tichure: in a way

AshReed69: something out of reach for him

AshReed69: in other words

tichure: yes

AshReed69: sorry head going faster than fingers can type

dncngrose: he was too young to understand anything

AshReed69: and the travels

tichure: is that reflected in the poem

AshReed69: his many journeys in life

AshReed69: sadness

AshReed69: and his hope for a better life as it should have been with his mother

tichure: Rose, the only thing a child understands is...

dncngrose: no stability found in any relationship

tichure: yes Rose

dncngrose: they question everything

AshReed69: so for him lots of this poem could represent many things

AshReed69: he was famous for that

AshReed69: water

tichure: the only thing a 2-year-old child knows it is what or whom

AshReed69: the boat

AshReed69: the statue; light; woman;

AshReed69: and that it wants now

dncngrose: mom and dad?

QuietAvngr: who really loves him

tichure: yes arose

tichure: yes avenger

tichure: according to psycho analytical theory, because of the loss of his mother at that age, he 
will never get beyond that growth stage

AshReed69: so would we look for double meanings in symbols with this perspective

QuietAvngr: and if his mother died when he was only two, then he may have thought that all 
people who loved him were going to die

tichure: yes

tichure: yes

tichure: a self-fulfilling prophecy

AshReed69: thats good

tichure: in a way

QuietAvngr: because you don't expect too much out of life

tichure: the whole purpose behind psychoanalytical criticism is to evaluate the confessional nature of art

AshReed69: and it also shows him as the traveler which runs from this 

AshReed69: even though it is something he longs for

tichure: does this poem reflect that avenger

dncngrose: he cant hold onto anything for  fear it will disappear

tichure: yes Rose... does the poem reflect that

tichure: we always wanna bring it back to the primary source

QuietAvngr: yes

tichure: always

tichure: this is something to keep in mind with all the criticisms especially biographical 
historical

tichure: there is a great deal of information about authors and their time periods, but we are 
only interested in what applies to the primary source at hand

tichure: in other words, only include what applies to the work being described

tichure: and so with feminist or psychoanalytical criticism, or any criticism, as soon as we come 
up with an idea, we will go back to the primary source to try to apply it

dncngrose: you mean what is said literally?

AshReed69: so On desperate seas long wont - desire- to roam is about him having that intense 
desire to run away from his own fears... to numb himself with long drawn out travels never really to return home

Wormstheword: the poem only reflects a want towards something like love

QuietAvngr: ok, but are we assuming that the audience knows nothing about the writer's 
background?

tichure: warm, is there hope or desperation?

tichure: avenger, when you do a psychoanalytical criticism on the author, you must include 
biographical information as support

AshReed69: i'd say both

AshReed69: for him

AshReed69: always that hope that one day it will be different

Wormstheword: i read it as a need

AshReed69: that is shown by the end of the poem

AshReed69: with the light at the end of the tunnel sort of speak

QuietAvngr: and then we apply the bio info to the piece

tichure: in fact, folks, from this point forward, I expect you to do a biographical and historical crit just to start the conversation unless you're doing formalist

AshReed69: but he's not there yet

tichure: gas

tichure: yes

AshReed69: still moving toward it

AshReed69: slowly

AshReed69: still in fear of it

tichure: Willie ever get their ash

AshReed69: no

tichure: well, it's phonetic anyway

AshReed69: :-):-)

tichure: finally

tichure: feminist

AshReed69: no.... it would have showed that in the poem

AshReed69: hey now

AshReed69: feminist

tichure: what does he due to the image of women in his poem

AshReed69: edify their beauty

tichure: to what extent... to a result

tichure: ?

Wormstheword: an untouchable quality

QuietAvngr: he worships them

AshReed69: but also their unavailability

tichure: to what results

tichure: is it realistic

tichure: is it flattering

AshReed69: yes to him

tichure: is its stereotypical

Wormstheword: of course

QuietAvngr: to the point where it does not exist

tichure: to us

AshReed69: flattering in some ways to the woman

tichure: to women

QuietAvngr: even today, yes

dncngrose: they are beautified beyond his imagination

QuietAvngr: to THAT woman

tichure: does he mention anything about her intellect

QuietAvngr: nope

eeyore fan 023: no

AshReed69: I think it is  more like their beauty is beyond something that he will ever have

Wormstheword: no, it is a man describing an image of a externally beautiful woman

tichure: to him all she is is...

QuietAvngr: and by today's standards, not flattering

QuietAvngr: a body

Wormstheword: beauty

QuietAvngr: a face

AshReed69: because the most beautiful thing in his life died on him

QuietAvngr: but no mind

dncngrose: they don't exist until he makes them up

AshReed69: no

tichure: why avenger

eeyore fan 023: a symbol, like helen of troy.

tichure: yes avenger

tichure: U.S. rose

QuietAvngr: they are only images

AshReed69: helen of troy was very intelligent woman

tichure: yes rose

AshReed69: he could have used someone else

tichure: yes fan

dncngrose: just a goddess of beauty, no more

tichure: where did you get that ash

AshReed69: to represent one with no mind

AshReed69: where

QuietAvngr: but she wasn't known for  that, only her beauty

AshReed69: oh

AshReed69: ok

tichure: I've read the Iliad and the Odyssey

AshReed69: i did too

AshReed69: in philosophy

tichure: I do not remember any discussion of her intelligence

eeyore fan 023: so have I they were great to read.

AshReed69: i had to do a bio on her

tichure: in fact, consider the context

AshReed69: and it showed that she was the one many times who plotted war plans

tichure: in the war, what was her position

QuietAvngr: she was the trophy

QuietAvngr: wasn't she?

tichure: would that be seen as a good thing at the time ash

tichure: yes avenger

AshReed69: not for the man

AshReed69: no

tichure: would a plotting woman be seen as a good thing

AshReed69: but than most woman showed more intelligence in the affairs of war

AshReed69: not necessarily

tichure: feminist criticism takes into account the intent of a work when it is advantageous to show that the work was designed to do mean or simplify women

AshReed69: woman still were not equals unless they are in power of some sort

AshReed69: such as Cleopatra

tichure: it does not take into account intent when it would comply that there was no harm 
meant

tichure: Cleopatra is an excellent example of a woman who was seen as beautiful, but whose 
intelligence was held against her

tichure: in fact, what was her greatest coup?

Wormstheword: anthony

dncngrose: men

AshReed69: in this art work poe used helen of troy as the symbol of beauty untouchability being aloof..... 

tichure: how did she get him

AshReed69: passion for power and to dominate men

Wormstheword: seduction

tichure: using her intelligence

AshReed69: very much the seductress

dncngrose: trickery

AshReed69: on the boat

AshReed69: she wrapped herself

AshReed69: in gold silk

AshReed69: and had him unravel her

dncngrose: her beauty was enough

AshReed69: he was doomed from that moment on

AshReed69: had to be more than just beauty for anthony

tichure: intelligent or conniving according to critics and writers and thinkers

tichure: of the time

AshReed69: who

AshReed69: cleopatra or helen

tichure: Cleopatra or Helen

tichure: any intelligent woman

AshReed69: lol

tichure: who was able to manipulate other people

AshReed69: most woman were considered deviant

AshReed69: manipulative

tichure: devious?

tichure: or deviant?

AshReed69: men were obsessed with them and so it was deemed that they had possessed them 

tichure: heheh

AshReed69: haha

AshReed69: deviant

AshReed69: or both

AshReed69: lol

dncngrose: definitely

dncngrose: both

dncngrose: beauty always helps though

tichure: ash, when you who put such analysis into modern context, you're actually doing an 
entirely different criticism called new historicism

AshReed69: i am

AshReed69: whoo whoo

AshReed69: :-)

tichure: new historicism takes all work and ignores the values and morés of the time it was 
written, and instead reads the work and evaluates it from the modern era

AshReed69: oh

AshReed69: and that is what i do

AshReed69: cool

AshReed69: not trying to though

tichure: unfortunately for you, ash, your next paper draft will involve feminist or psychoanalytical criticism

AshReed69: trying to be the feminist

AshReed69: great

AshReed69: thanks

AshReed69: this is why i have a hard time in english writing classes

Wormstheword has left the room.

tichure: choose one of those

tichure: we will discuss death of a salesman next week

tichure: and then we will begin talking about the papers


AshReed69: great.................... i get so lost in the focus of things that when i think i'm on the right track.... whamoo...... there goes the freight train

tichure: what I want you to do is to read death of the salesman and then read some 
biographical information

tichure: we will do biographical

tichure: historical

tichure: feminist

tichure: and psychoanalytical criticism on this work

AshReed69: ok

AshReed69: is there a site for clear definitions between them all

AshReed69: and descriptions

dncngrose: wow. all in an hour and a half

tichure: yes arose

QuietAvngr: they're in your book

tichure: I am an optimist

AshReed69: where avenger

dncngrose: sounds good

tichure: yes avenger

tichure: in the back of the book

AshReed69: thanks

AshReed69: found it

AshReed69: duh

tichure: there also explained on the Web site

QuietAvngr: in the back, i'll find the page

Wormstheword has entered the room.

tichure: there are also linked from the Internet reading list

tichure: to other sites at other colleges

AshReed69: ok

tichure: so if you don't like my explanation

tichure: and you don't like the books explanation

AshReed69: i'll get cracking and impress you with my intelligence next week

AshReed69: :-)

AshReed69: :-*

tichure: that maybe you'll like penn states explanation

tichure: please be aware that when you change criticism you can change the meaning of a 
work

tichure: and therefore you need to distinguish between the criticisms and label them clearly so 
I know you know what you're talking about

tichure: there will be times when to criticisms, feminist and psychoanalytical, revealed the 
same response

tichure: but they come from a different angle

AshReed69: ok

tichure: it's like a tree in the middle of a long highway

tichure: no matter which we were driving

tichure: we're going to hit it

AshReed69: hahahahaha

tichure: but we may not be on the same side of the tree

AshReed69: lmao

tichure: any questions

AshReed69: yeah

AshReed69: cant we just write some poems instead

tichure: no

AshReed69: :-(

AshReed69: i tried

dncngrose: so we can just choose one or does it have to be all?

tichure: but later on, when someone explains to you your own psycho sees based on your 
work, you'll know where they got those ideas

tichure: one rose

tichure: feminist or psychoanalytical

AshReed69: lol

dncngrose: thats what i thought

tichure: but I do expect you to do some biographical research as well

AshReed69: so we are reading death of a salesman

dncngrose: of course

tichure: in fact, on both of these authors biographical and historical research will help you a 
great deal

AshReed69: and doing research

AshReed69: only on him

tichure: for next week yes

tichure: the papers are not on death of a salesman

tichure: we'll use that to practice

AshReed69: ok

dncngrose: yes, that's me. its a long one too

tichure: any other questions

tichure: yes Rose

dncngrose: no

eeyore fan 023: does anyone know the phone number for the testing center?

AshReed69: are you going to post these

tichure: it is on the Web site

dncngrose: its on the message board

tichure: post what?

AshReed69: its on the website

eeyore fan 023: thanks

AshReed69: and what perspective we will use

tichure: yes ash

tichure: it will be posted by tomorrow

AshReed69: ok

tichure: such a helpful group

AshReed69: :-)

AshReed69: oh

eeyore fan 023: thanks rose

AshReed69: and for those that are here

AshReed69: i have posted study chat times for us

AshReed69: some want to add other times and days

AshReed69: so you need to let me know

AshReed69: right now its monday and wednesday

AshReed69: from 7-9ish

AshReed69: all posted on message board

dncngrose: mr e, are we done for tonight?

tichure: anything else?

tichure: yes Rose

AshReed69: bye rose

dncngrose: goodnight everyone!! see you next week

tichure: by Rose

eeyore fan 023: see ya

QuietAvngr: bye

tichure: by fan

tichure: by avenger

eeyore fan 023: by Mr. E

AshReed69: bye all..................................

AshReed69: by mr. e

Wormstheword: bye

tichure: by ash

AshReed69: and thank you for your time

tichure: by worm

AshReed69: and all around wisdom

dncngrose has left the room.

eeyore fan 023 has left the room.

QuietAvngr has left the room.

Wormstheword has left the room.

AshReed69 has left the room.

tichure: (((looking around bewildered))))

tichure: poof