Joined on February 29, 2012 at 6:45 PM tichure: 103 Sage: Hello, i guess we have not started, oh woops, it is not seven yet Sage: i thought there would have been more people here at this time tichure: hahaha....no....they wander in starting at 7 tichure: hey now tichure: still loading tichure: hey spring. You made it tichure: have any of you chosen anything for the first paper Sage: I have chosen to right about the meaning of the lyrics of American Pie (don Mclean) tichure: which critical perspectives sage Sage: That ought to fill up 4 or 5 pages. hahahaha tichure: actually, for that particular song, that's true but I do need to know which critical perspective you're applying Sage: sorry i typed that before you asked the question Sage: biographical/historical and cultural tichure: how much of this is about the author? Sage: do u think not as much as i expected tichure: Well of course tichure: in fact, the primary element refers to the author is the fact newspaper boy tichure: bad news on the doorstep I couldn't take one more step Sage: yep tichure: could you write an entire paragraph with a minimum 10 sentences on that particular aspect of analysis tichure: given that you have one line to deal with tichure: one of the elements of doing this type of analysis is choosing the appropriate critical perspectives according to the work that is under discussion. Not every critical perspective is applicable to every particular work and certainly one of the first elements are going to be analyzing is whether or not the work is about the author. Do not automatically assume that work is automatically either about an author or evaluation of an era etc. Sage: for that particular line no but most of them ye Sage: s tichure: then don't do biographical tichure: is the song based on historical people and events? Sage: yes tichure: So a obviously historical criticism is appropriate Sage: so just historical and cultural, that might overlap a bit tichure: for the case of American pie unlike any other song in the list, you can do the entire paper with one critical perspective (Historical, in 2 sections, 1950 and 60's) because if you're going to do it right, you need to evaluate all of the elements as McLean examines what happens to culture and music over the short span he is discussing tichure: which cultural perspective would you choose Sage: my book is not here yet, i do not know the various cultural prespectives tichure: besides being in the book sage. It's on my website tichure: you could check them out right now Sage: ah yes tichure: englit.org, literary terms, critical perspectives tichure: critical approaches actually Sage: i thaught i read everything, ill go look again tichure: more importantly, you wouldn't want to tell me you're going to do a Critical perspective of any kind if you don't know what it is. tichure: not a problem tichure: has anyone else chosen a topic for the first paper? tichure: everybody can answer all at once. I need information as quickly as possible tichure: not quite yet David. I want to know what you're doing for your first paper tichure: folks, rule number one of most college courses. Follow directions. The assignment is posted on CANVAS tells you to choose from cultural biographical historical gender etc. I guarantee you deconstruction is not on that list Peter: i think we are all looking at different pages.. tichure: while I'm telling you to look at the paper number one tichure: and look at the ASSIGNMENT DavidF: I haven't chosen a topic on that yet, sorry for the confusion tichure: that's what I need to know. I do want you to do something fairly soon David because the only way that I can help you to land in the right general area is if we have even a brief conversation about it. tichure: More importantly, the discussions that we have in the chat room are going to be on poetry from the calendar, but very often a student finds most helpful to actually discuss the work in which she will be graded DavidF: I will choose one and email to you tichure: therefore when asked at the beginning of class whether or not you've chosen your first paper topic, it is your opportunity to ask the questions and more importantly for me to make sure that you're on the right track tichure: when you do, make sure you tell me which critical perspectives you will be applying DavidF: got it spring 1: i have also tichure: excellent tichure: the whole purpose for this process is that as we go through these discussions you begin to see what we're looking for a more importantly what we're NOT looking for. tichure: which critical perspectives spring Sage: i read the cultual criticism papragraph and i am still confused. could u help me out Sage: on the web tichure: sure, sage hold on a second spring 1: not sure exactly which meaning but definitely a symbolic meaning of the words tichure: no that's formalist tichure: that's what you did in English 101 tichure: for an entire semester tichure: you don't need to do it here spring 1: oh ok tichure: Is this work based on the author and his own personal experiences? spring 1: i need to review this then Peter: if i do biographical on mine, would i talk about how ozzy was suffering through alcohol/drug abuse? tichure: well we're going to discuss this in class today spring tichure: yes Peter, if the alcoholism and drug abuse occurs prior or during the writing of the song spring 1: great tichure: if Ozzy Osbourne's famous drug use occurs afterwards, you cannot use biographical tichure: spring, what you would want to do is find a biography of Kurt Cobain. And by the way folks for anybody who has Netflix, there are a great number of very credible biographical analyses on all kinds of musical people. tichure: There is also A lot available in the library of our school because of the strong music program. tichure: that being said, the idea that is that a biographical criticism is a critical perspective that says the work itselfてｶ your poem or songてｶ is a depiction of what happened to the author at some point prior to the writing of the song tichure: as I was discussing with sage, that doesn't always work tichure: his choice of American pie, that much famous long-winded song by Don McLean, only has one reference to the author and therefore a biographical criticism would not be useful because you can get an entire college-level paragraph out of that Peter: great, so im guessing cultural/historical would talk about how many went to the bottle in rough times tichure: not necessarily Peter tichure: in fact, historical and cultural are not the same tichure: historical criticism is a critical perspective that says the work is a reflection of the era tichure: that means terminology tichure: historical reference tichure: famous events tichure: famous people Peter: ah ok tichure: song written in the 1920s that uses the word GAY has different context than a song written in the 2000s that use the word GAY tichure: a cultural perspective, and you want to know about this, Sage, is a critical perspective that translates the work from a specific cultural group's perspective tichure: it actually evaluates the work through the values and ideas and cases of the particular group of people tichure: each one of them approaches the work in a different way tichure: for example tichure: I want to read tichure: we real cool by Gwendolyn Brooks tichure: let me know when you're ready it's very short Sage: waht cultural group is best for american pie do u think? youth/adolecents Sage: maybe? tichure: hold on on sage, while we go through this process first and then perhaps you'll have a better answer than me simply telling you.... the deal is I'm not looking for you to write the essay that I would write. I'm looking for you to Properly use these critical perspectives and there are many ways to do this correctlyてｶ as well as many more ways to do it incorrectly. tichure: read we real cool tichure: what is the poem about Peter: kids who dont care about school? Sage: the poem is about kids who dropped out of school, they drink, and they have unhealthy life styles. they also hang at bars Sage: (pool) tichure: keep going Peter tichure: that's good, sage tichure: what is their future Peter: they are into jaz and having fun tichure: what do they do on a daily basis besides drank and hang out at bars and play pool Peter: jazz* tichure: very good tichure: what is fun for them Sage: music, poool, Peter: hanging out and soaking up the sounds Sage: pool* tichure: what is thin gin? tichure: sing sin? Sage: they are going to die because of their unhealthy life style. Peter: drinking gin and commiting sin tichure: that is what it says Sage: brag about bad things they done and doingthem tichure: what we have just done is standard formalist criticism. Of course, you won't do that for me on your paper tichure: exactly sage tichure: open up a web browser tichure: to find something on Gwendolyn Brooks tichure: and tell me whether or not she's talking about herself Peter: shes talking about the lifestyle in her neighborhood tichure: does Gwendolyn Brooks hang out in pool halls Sage: nice peter tichure: did she drop out of school Sage: she had a very stable life style except for racial prejudice in her town tichure: the difference between historical and biographical criticism is that one talks about what was happening in the other one talks about what happened to the author tichure: does she make her living in a pool hall tichure: so far you are correct sage tichure: what does she do for a living tichure: and is it reflected in the work tichure: you found racism in her lifeてｶ is racism reflected in the work Sage: some of her poems have reflected that tichure: I did NOT ask you about some poems stage tichure: sage tichure: I asked you about this one Sage: i would assume that the kids she is talking aabout were likely racist though Sage: sorry tichure: like I said, I'm not asking you to give me analysis of an author. Stay on focus Sage: whoops tichure: do not assume anything Peter: she saw people going into pool halls playing, skipping school tichure: that is correct Peter tichure: is this about HER spring 1: she went to many different schools giving her a perspective on racial dynamics that translated into her work tichure: is the narrative about HER tichure: hahahaha Sage: no tichure: good answer sage tichure: is biographical criticism appropriate for this particular work Sage: no tichure: good answer tichure: one of the things that made you did mention is that she's talking about people that she witnessed tichure: therefore, is she talking about a lifestyle at a particular time in history? Peter: well kids still skip school to do what they think is fun, so its kind of timeless Sage: yes, especially in the state she lived in tichure: More importantly, this has to do with your research. tichure: Thank you Sage Sage: it is worse today tichure: the idea is to stay on track for whatever critical perspective that you're trying out so that you don't end up with a wandering essay that says essentially nothing tichure: hold off on today tichure: I'm talking about when this was written tichure: when was this written Peter: 1950? tichure: and is she talking about something that she knows because she observed it or would have known that statistically it was evident within a bigger population tichure: what would you use for a secondary source to support this as being historically accurate spring 1: both tichure: very good spring and what would you use as a secondary source spring 1: not sure Sage: there are many articles that talk about adolecent lifes in different time periods Sage: life styles* tichure: very good sage tichure: one of the resources that you should be considering that are in the library is called the People's chronology tichure: available through the gale virtual library, the People's chronology explains cultural trends and historical elements year by year after the year 1000 and before that goes by decade tichure: if one were to do research, one would find out that a particular segment of the population and found that school was not very important tichure: what is the setting for this particular very short story Peter: the golden shovel pool hall? tichure: where is that Peter Sage: ohhh tichure: where are pool halls generally spring 1: bars Peter: in a poverty area of a large city tichure: very good Peter tichure: well spring, a pool hall is by definition a type of bar tichure: but peters more on the right track tichure: by and large, what populations are often inhabiting large cities tichure: and what is their attitude about school tichure: and its usefulness for life tichure: Keep in mind, this is 1950 Peter: large cities often have large apartment complexes with a very large percentage living in pverty. school is very low priority Peter: getting a job in construction is often a goal. often time many turn to crime as well Peter: am i close? tichure: very good tichure: is race a factor Sage: yes spring 1: yes tichure: what was the likelihood in 1950s that an African American is going to be able to get into college Peter: very low tichure: then what's the point of going to high school tichure: for them spring 1: low Peter: getting a job to help the family is more of a priority? spring 1: hoping for change tichure: very good Peter tichure: absolutely spring tichure: and in fact, what is happening to the American family for the inner-city blacks of the 1950s tichure: in terms of cohesiveness tichure: sense of responsibility tichure: to need to get a steady job tichure: this is where your historical information is going to be useful tichure: analyses of what is happening within specific cultures have specific time help you translate work within the context of the author intends spring 1: they began to come together. setting the stage for the civil rights mov tichure: being a Gwendolyn Brooks herself is writing about the inner cities of Chicago tichure: which are predominantly black tichure: tells us she has something to tell us tichure: spring, I wanted to as much as possible try to avoid automatically assuming that things tichure: hahhaahh tichure: are going to get any better tichure: what is happening to the nuclear family for African-Americans in the inner cities tichure: in reality tichure: by the 1950s and fully into the 60s and 70s tichure: I'm going to send you something. Peter: ok spring 1: ok tichure: Check your e-mail Peter: got it tichure: what I want you to do is get into either Ebscohost or the Gale literature resource Center and find biographical information about the author, as opposed to using something on Wikipedia. tichure: Furthermore, you can use some of the other databases concerning sociology and HISTORY that are available for Ebscohost when you get a big long list of things to choose from when you first login tichure: choose anything that says HISTORY and anything that involves MEDICINE or HEALTH tichure: and you're going to get articles that talk about the era and the issues that your works discussed but will not discuss the works themselves. tichure: What you're looking for is the nuclear family for African-Americans in inner cities in the 50s tichure: and the question is whether or not they are cohesive or they're breaking apart tichure: and were looking for tendencies here tichure: because the question would beてｶ if these guys went out to get jobs to support families, how consistent is the money if what they're doing is hanging out at a pool hall? tichure: And therefore are they really doing this for their families at all or is this a more selfish endeavor spring 1: got email and read tichure: from the historical perspective, if what the authors doing is giving us a slice of someone's lifestyle, we have to also make sense of what she's tried to tell us tichure: and I will tell you now that it is unlikely she's trying to tell us something positive Peter: selfishness is splitting families apart from unsteady incomes? tichure: does that fit what is going on in this poem? spring 1: yes Peter: it appears so tichure: from a middle-class white perspective, how would they view the story of these inner-city black youth and their choices? tichure: How would they feel about these boys/men and their choices? spring 1: it seems like they drop put of school to work to make money to live a fast lifestyle ignpring their responsibilities Peter: irresponsible Peter: leeches on society? Sage: have not gotten email yet, sorry i was not part of chat for a couple mins. my little nrother had to sell his hamster. Sage: haha tichure: Very good spring tichure: very good Peter tichure: thanks for the information stage. I hope you made a bundle Sage: ha tichure: cultural criticism is a critical perspective that translate to work from the perspective of a particular group tichure: in this case, the cultural analysis from a middle-class white society would find very little empathy with the choices that these black youth have made with their lives tichure: how they feel about gambling? tichure: How do they feel about drinking? tichure: How do they feel about lack of a steady job? tichure: How do they feel about poor black people in the first place? spring 1: got it spring 1: did u say this was cultural criticism Sage: Drinking, alot of drugs, and especially smoking was not as taboo as it used to be for the people that did it tichure: yes it is spring tichure: very good sage tichure: and again, in this case were only talking about alcohol but in any case tichure: this is 1950s tichure: 1950s conservative white society tichure: who would have a problem with not only these social issues, but also raise tichure: you would find a resource that discusses their attitudes in their beliefs tichure: and use that as the filter to analyze the work Sage: ahhh tichure: conservative white society would have a problem with not only the social issues, but would also race tichure: for example in contrast tichure: how would inner-city black youth respond to the poem and what the characters are doing Peter: they would see them as cool spring 1: as a desired life. they have it made so it seems tichure: very good tichure: to different critical perspectives tichure: to different cultures tichure: two different paragraphs tichure: 2 different critical perspectives Sage: like sprong sid, it would be layed back, "bad boyish", and easy tichure: 2 different cultures Sage: spring* tichure: well, more importantly what were looking for is a secondary source that supports the notion that they would necessarily agree or least not have a problem with those images Sage: it depends which people and social class tichure: that's exactly the point stage Sage: k tichure: any cultural criticism is going to be an analysis from a particular cultural group that YOU identify and YOU find resources for tichure: and you will filter the work through that particular cultural lens tichure: how would a Mormon respond to this group of characters in the story Sage: deffenetly Sage: ha Peter: they appear very sinful tichure: be specific here tichure: specific Peter tichure: what rules are you referring to Peter: they are drinking tichure: religion is a culture. Each religion has specific rules tichure: and according to Mormonsてｶ Peter: you can not pollute your body Sage: mormons do not drink, they work ahrd, and complete their education tichure: what if they just had a soda? tichure: Peter, you're on the right track, but you have to give me specifics tichure: very good sage tichure: that is a better answer Sage: hard not ahrd tichure: because it has more specifics tichure: I knew what you meant Peter: exactly tichure: how would an Orthodox Jew respond to the characters Sage: similar Peter: that was strange, got kicked out tichure: how would an orthodox Muslim respond to the characters tichure: your back Sage: not sure spring 1: I think most of any stroing faith would lookdon on this behavior but maybe still have compassion tichure: the funny thing is that we can actually find that ideologies that seem at odds with each other actually agree about many things tichure: you are correct spring, but compassion may not be one of them spring 1: yes tichure: the more conservative and fundamentalist the belief system, the more likely they're going to say that these transgressions are not a matter of something that can be fixed, but rather something that is the onus upon the individual to change tichure: in other words, it they would not necessarily agree that alcoholism, for example, is a disease, but would rather see it as a personal failing tichure: the point however is that you can skin this particular cat in all kinds of ways tichure: and each one is a cultural analysis tichure: and all you need for each individual cultural analysis is some kind of source or reference that gives the rules and values for them tichure: and when you find out that conservative Muslims and conservative Jews and conservative Christians and other conservative groups find education to be of utmost importance and lack of direction and drug use to be horrible transgressions would translate the work similarly tichure: in makes for an interesting paper spring 1: so this is one of the ways to look at doing the paper tichure: yes tichure: and you can do more than one cultural perspective in each essay tichure: since we party identified this is not about the author, we know that biographical is off the table. tichure: We do know that historically, she's discussing what is happening to get her semi within the inner city, so historical would be appropriate but historical is only to give a statistical information that supports that her portrayal is accurate tichure: dropout rates for inner-city youth tichure: dropout rates for inner-city black youth tichure: drug use for inner-city youth tichure: life expectancy for inner-city youth tichure: etc. tichure: that would be historical tichure: it does not carry with it any opinion tichure: it simply connects facts to the work tichure: you see how these critical perspectives apply in this particular case??? spring 1: yes Peter: yes Sage: yes tichure: in this case, biographical is a bad choice but historical and several cultural criticisms would be appropriate tichure: each cultural criticism is going to be its own paragraph tichure: each cultural criticism is going to require a secondary source that discusses how that your culture thinks and believes and feels tichure: it is unlikely that that cultural criticism is going to discuss the story specifically tichure: you would make those connections tichure: everybody with me so far Peter: yes, it seems more clear now spring 1: y tichure: excellent tichure: as the author have a point here tichure: does the author have a point here tichure: is she trying to tell us something tichure: or she merely trying to tell us that inner-city black kids are bad news Sage: yes Sage: whoops didnt mean to say yes to that tichure: hahahaha spring 1: yes i believes she has a point tichure: what is the point tichure: what is her point spring 1: i think it's laziness and lack of self discipline does not lead to a long and prosperous life tichure: very good Sage: she is saying tHAT THE SCENARIO that this kids were in in there life was not good, and influenced them badly to become what they did. Sage: and what spring said Sage: haha tichure: hahahah tichure: sage, is there any indication that she is blaming the school system or society for their situation tichure: and you must stick to the poem tichure: spring, who is the audience for that particular message tichure: in other words, who DOESN'T seem to know this Sage: yes* to the society and school question tichure: sage, show me in the poem where she blames or mentions the school system or society for these people's choices spring 1: youth Sage: ii was never fond of the public school system in the US my self but Sage: ohh Sage: i guess i did not meant to say that she said it but merely meant it tichure: i will never ask you your opinion sage tichure: doesnt work that way tichure: spring tichure: which youth Sage: alright Peter: she never says or blames schools. its the youths selfish choice to do what they do. they have no reason or longing to do good in school. no incentive if they cant get to college anyhow. tichure: very good Peter tichure: which youth need to know this Sage: aahh ok tichure: which ones is she speaking to Peter: black youth tichure: that need to know that these kids are going to die because of their own choice tichure: very good Peter tichure: why would Gwendolyn Brooks care about them Peter: because she was one tichure: why would Gwendolen broke scared to tell these losers what they're doing wrong tichure: exactly Sage: that is her race and she tinks they could do better tichure: Marxists criticism is a critical perspective that essentially says that an author has an ax to grind and very often they are PROPAGANDIZING by explaining something to an audience that does not seem to understand a particular idea tichure: that is correct sage tichure: from a Marxist perspective, she is talking to black youth and she's telling them that they are screwing up their lives even though they think that they are cool tichure: she uses the first-person narrative and their slang and gathers them in by talking about the things that they consider cool in a way that seems positive and slowly brings them around to that inevitable demise tichure: and the message to them is that they are destroying their lives tichure: she does not discuss the horrible school system tichure: she does not discuss the horrible effects of racism tichure: because if she were to do that he would fall into the notion that they have someone else to blame tichure: and while she knows that society has a lot of the impact on what happens to use in all kinds of cultures, that is not the point of this particular work Sage: ohhh tichure: the point would be lost if she allowed them to blame someone else tichure: so she focuses on the kids because in this message is that kids who need to be changing tichure: therefore she does not mention the crappy school system tichure: she does not mention the racist environment tichure: including politicians and cops tichure: she mentions that at some point these people have to do something for themselves tichure: and that their own choices will have negative consequences if their bad choices tichure: who is she speaking to that agrees with her already Peter: the reader tichure: peter, again, which one tichure: whenever you're doing this type of analysis, you must identify the audience SPECIFICALLY tichure: otherwise the reader is black youth tichure: and she is propagandizing them to change their attitudes tichure: I'm looking for someone who AGREES with your point tichure: that these kids are throwing their lives away tichure: who agrees with her point tichure: who is she speaking to that agrees with her point Peter: shes trying to communicate this to whoever is reading. she wants to better the reader and make them aware of the black youth's pitfalls tichure: peter, don't do that tichure: it's too broad tichure: it gives you no way to research it in any meaningful way tichure: the reason we chose black youth as the propagandized audience is because we can easily look up resources that explain how they think about the very things that are being portrayed their tichure: we would know that gambling and drinking are cool tichure: and that school is not favored by that particular group tichure: if you tell me that the audiences EVERYBODY how do you apply any opinion tichure: you can also not give me AMERICA as an answer because it is too broad and too diverse tichure: which segment of society agrees with Gwendolyn Brooks that black youths are throwing their lives away with poor choices especially when it comes to drugs and education tichure: in other words, who cares Peter: conservatives? spring 1: elders tichure: very good Peter tichure: very good spring tichure: in this case, Marxist criticism would say that Gwendolyn Brooks is PANDERING to an audience by telling them what they agree with. She essentially is preaching to the choir in the sense that she tells them things that they agree with which validate their opinion tichure: pandering and propagandizing are different in the sense of AUDIENCE tichure: and therefore it is necessary that you identify the audience very specifically tichure: the message is generally the same but specifically different tichure: to the propagandized group, the message is usually CHANGE tichure: to the pandered group, the message is usually YOU ARE CORRECT tichure: pandering also is applied when a work panders to the more prurient interests of an audience tichure: for example, tichure: give me the standard requirements for a rap video Peter: beat tichure: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xy4FXhkm6Nw tichure: here is a tame one tichure: it's more than that here tichure: it's more than that Peter tichure: this has to do with making sure that the audience is truly catered to tichure: so they'll keep coming back tichure: and you identify the audience tichure: and you identify what you're giving them tichure: what you're pandering to spring 1: women wearing practiculy nothing grinding on each other or the rapper themselves tichure: very good springてｶ I believe what you're talking about is sex tichure: keep going tichure: what else tichure: especially, for example, gangster rap which would have something that this particular video does not spring 1: flashy cars and jewelry Sage: ha Peter: the appearance of prosperity spring 1: drugs alchol and all supposed life can bring tichure: very good spring tichure: very good Peter tichure: very good spring again tichure: who's the audience tichure: who is the PRIMARY audience tichure: male or female tichure: young or old Peter: young males tichure: sex drugs and prosperity tichure: I'm shocked spring 1: male of low economic value showing that this life can bring you to where you want tichure: pandering also refers to the author's intentional use of specific devices to gather an audience and please them tichure: sometime spring and sometimes the mail of extremely high economic status showing off what they have tichure: because it has to do with power and prestige spring 1: true tichure: when you watch your favorite soap opera on television, who is the primary audience tichure: Gray's anatomy tichure: male or female tichure: young or middle-aged tichure: when elements make it appeal to that ticket or audience tichure: to that particular audience spring 1: females, both those who are at home with kids or retired tichure: very good tichure: when elements within that particular television show appeal to that group tichure: how are men portrayed? How are women portrayed? What kind of music is used? tichure: what are the topics under discussion tichure: is this type of formulaic standard that we did various types of music, television, movies and other programming specifically designed for a specific demographic tichure: Marxist criticism essentially says that pandering is useful and common because simply they are selling a product. They are not telling us about truth or reality or trying to make us better people. They are merely selling a commodity and they are making the commodity as appropriately attractive as possible spring 1: this type of work is similar as the rap video but hidden in a different way. the soap is still selling sex, money as a means tichure: of course tichure: differ not against tichure: different audience tichure: different values tichure: different product tichure: same means spring 1: y tichure: Marxist criticism does not distinguish between good and bad. Marxist criticism is not about Marxism. Marxist criticism is about the notion that any work as a commodity and therefore is being used by the author either to tell you something you do not want to hear through PROPAGANDIZING or to give you what you want through PANDERING spring 1: never looked at it that way before. very intresting tichure: good lord, look at the time Sage: i have to leave this discussion everyone, sorry. tichure: I want you to choose your topic for your paper. If you done so, I want you to start your research. Keep in mind the unique used valid credible resources. tichure: I do too sage tichure: have a good week everybody. I'll see you here next week spring 1: ok Peter: very good, thanks for the great insight proffessor Peter: good night tichure: poof