leslied639 has joined the conference. melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net has joined the conference. acgomez3108 has joined the conference. vamp234201 has joined the conference. mazzei_ruben has joined the conference. melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: hi stichure: heynow acgomez3108: hi mazzei_ruben: HELLO! vamp234201: good evening everyone stichure: better leslied639: Hello vamp234201: Thanks sunshine63852000 has joined the conference. sunshine63852000: thank u stichure: You are welcome lsciurba has joined the conference. lsciurba: Hi all stichure: Is everybody in? lsciurba: here vamp234201: here stichure: Can everyone see seven other people besides themselves acgomez3108: me too acgomez3108: yes vamp234201: yes leslied639: yes mazzei_ruben: YES melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: yep lsciurba: yep stichure: Lovely stichure: Today we are going to discuss your first paper and do some more analysis using biographical and historical criticism stichure: You should have already seen the assignment, but your assignment is to write a paper based on a particular work in which you analyze network based solely on biographical and historical analysis stichure: In which you analyze that work stichure: I will take for granted that you know some of what I'm going to tell you, but I do need to remind you of several things stichure: First is that this essay requires that you directly quote primary and secondary sources in your essay stichure: You will cite that information with the authors last name and for your secondary sources, the page number. For the poetry itself, you will cite by authors last name and the line number stichure: For secondary sources (Jones 34) stichure: For primary source, (Jones lines 3-5) stichure: Is everyone with me so far mazzei_ruben: we follow MLA, right? stichure: Absolutely lsciurba: yep acgomez3108: yes leslied639: yes vamp234201: This is on the lyrics paper right? lsciurba: do you have a limit on quotes sunshine63852000: yes stichure: That is correct, vamp stichure: ls, I want you to stick to an analysis of the work and I want you to keep in mind that quotation is ALWAYS used to explain and support rather than to make the point itself lsciurba: ok stichure: Therefore, I do not have a numerical limit on quotation, but I do expect that there will be several quotations... short quotations... in each paragraph, and that the paragraph will be mostly your analysis lsciurba: short quotes acgomez3108: so each paragrah can have more that one quotation? lsciurba: this is something i always have trouble with. how short stichure: Yes, LS stichure: Yes, AC stichure: Sometimes, just a phrase L. S. lsciurba: ok sunshine63852000: everyone still there? acgomez3108: yes stichure: In fact, to move things along and show you an important resource, I want all of you to open a browser window and go to my web site stichure: Yes, sunshine lsciurba: there stichure: Everyone else? vamp234201: yes stichure: I need to know when you're there so we can all move together so no one gets lost acgomez3108: there melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: i'm there leslied639: there stichure: Sunshine... Rubin? mazzei_ruben: i just opened it\ stichure: http://www.citruscollege.com/DE/Eiland/distance/engl103/engl103.htm mazzei_ruben: thanks stichure: Beautiful stichure: Sunshine, are you with us vamp234201: got it stichure: Click on the LIBRARY link at the bottom of the page leslied639: sunshine is having computer problems melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: k lsciurba: ok vamp234201: k acgomez3108: ok stichure: Thanks Leslie stichure: Keep me posted mazzei_ruben: i don't see it stichure: Bottom of the page... vamp234201: way down at the bottom stichure: Thanks vamp mazzei_ruben: good sunshine63852000: how long would you like it to be prof. stichure: You will notice that on the left-hand side is a series of research tools... I want you to choose search databases and articles stichure: Like what to be, sunshine? acgomez3108: ok lsciurba: k melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: ok leslied639: I'm unable to open it....I get a blank page mazzei_ruben: me neither stichure: In this class, we will not only be using the standard language arts/literary resources, but also some other databases that will give us a statistical information acgomez3108: try to refresh the page stichure: http://info.citruscollege.com/library/databases.htm mazzei_ruben: perfect! stichure: The first place I want you to look at is the literary resource Center stichure: The literature resource Center leslied639: thanks lsciurba: k acgomez3108: ok stichure: When you click on that, it is going to ask you for a password stichure: The password is Glen55457 stichure: no spaces acgomez3108: ok stichure: Make sure you capitalize the G mazzei_ruben: good lsciurba: ok leslied639: ok stichure: Like ebscohost and others like it, the literature resource Center, also called planes, has thousands of research articles that are specifically designed for literary analysis. This includes biographical information, historical context of a particular work, as well as some direct literary critical analysis stichure: The first place that you should start is here in order to get some biographical information stichure: Look at the poems that we have been discussing vamp234201: looked up cummings stichure: Greatvamp sunshine63852000: im there at the password mazzei_ruben: do we need to know the bioghraphy of the authors of the poems that we have been reading for the tests? lsciurba: peircy stichure: Glen55457, sunshine stichure: You should, Ruben mazzei_ruben: thanks stichure: If you in Morris's class, you're expected to have the some information about each one of the works that will be used for the past lsciurba: helps if i spell it right, piercy stichure: For the test stichure: When you open the literature resource Center, the first thing that you get is a biographical search... and author search stichure: If there is a biographer search by author, it will be the first list of things that you get leslied639: very cool acgomez3108: nice stichure: The biographical information is not there for you to write a biography for me. That biographical information is designed to give you a reference for the particular work under discussion. You well ONLY applied that which directly applies to the poem itself stichure: You will also notice that there are tabs at the top of the page stichure: Besides biography, you will have opportunity for literary criticism stichure: And literary historical timeline, which will give you an idea when particular things were happening during the authors life leslied639: This is a great site! stichure: If you are doing historical criticism, this may be helpful stichure: I think so lsciurba: this is really great stichure: Like I said, you are required to go to the library and get the sheet that has all of the passwords for all of the sites we offer. The school pays thousands and thousands of dollars... nearly 75,000 total... for this information each year. This is considered part of the library. stichure: Obviously, you can also go to the library and research these things through hard copies, but there is much more on these databases then you will find in the library itself leslied639: I have the sheet from previous classes. It's quite helpful stichure: Obviously, the computers at the library will also a lie you instant access to this information stichure: And those passwords should still be the same, Leslie stichure: Also a la you instant access leslied639: great stichure: Also allow you instant access stichure: You will come back to this later... write down the password for now so you can do your research later stichure: Are there any questions about this type of resource lsciurba: got it vamp234201: got it leslied639: no questiosn acgomez3108: no mazzei_ruben: nope sunshine63852000: no melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: no lsciurba: ok, let me double check here lsciurba: we need to know bio info for the test, correct? acgomez3108: i actually have one quick question stichure: Yes stichure: Go-ahead Gomez stichure: And for your paper, L. S. acgomez3108: we can use the literary criticism and work overview to add to the authros bio correct? lsciurba: i mean the authors for glass reading for the test acgomez3108: ok thank you! stichure: Yes, Gomez but you're more likely to use that to discuss theme than really perhaps the author's life, but also to historical context stichure: Yes LS. stichure: This brings us to the actual topics themselves stichure: My web site, go to the I net reading list lsciurba: there leslied639: there melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: ok stichure: Nearly at the bottom, you will find the LYRICAL POEM LIST msb4god has joined the conference. stichure: Hello God msb4god: hello all stichure: Discussing paper one stichure: http://www.citruscollege.com/DE/Eiland/eiland_shared/poemlist.htm stichure: Go to the Poem list msb4god: okay stichure: on it you will find a list of researchable topics for your first paper if you are in my class. leslied639: ok....there stichure: These particular topics are there because they are, indeed, researchable either through biographical or historical context. If you have chosen one were have questions about one, I can give you some hints and some direction msb4god: I am in Morris msb4god: s class are the paper similar? stichure: I'm not mistaken, she uses a similar list, if not mine msb4god: this is the song lyrics right? stichure: What's important here is that you choose something that is researchable. stichure: That's correct God stichure: As part of that, you must find some specific biographical and/or historical context in which you discuss the work stichure: I do not want a biography stichure: I do not want a history lesson stichure: An even worse, I do not want you to tell me what you think the poem says to you vamp234201: Went into Amos not avail. stichure: Instead stichure: http://www.citruscollege.com/DE/Eiland/eiland_shared/poemlist.htm stichure: I have no idea why it would do that vamp leslied639: Just to confirm...we can select anything on the list, even if someone else has selected it...correct? stichure: Of course stichure: In fact, I encourage people to work together on these in terms of gathering research lsciurba: do you want to know who we pick stichure: You will notice the hint page stichure: Only because I want you to ask me questions now before I have to read your paper stichure: There are certain songs that are much better analyzed through biographical rather than historical information and vice versa vamp234201: is the link just the lyrics of the song nothing more stichure: The hint page will give you some kind of information vamp234201: k stichure: Sometimes a web site of that person stichure: Sometimes a biographical resource stichure: Sometimes just the lyrics lsciurba: it was helpful for my choice stichure: Sometimes nothing stichure: What did you choose LS msb4god: where is the hint page located? vamp234201: I got the nothing lsciurba: joe walsh-life's been good melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: the one for Jewel does not work sunshine63852000: do you want us to discuss or song in both historical and biographical info? stichure: You would want to leave that up with the seventies rock and roll lifestyle as exhibited and books like "I'm with the band" and movies like "2000 motels" stichure: yes Sunshine stichure: Some of the links will have died stichure: Your job is to do a good goal or Yahoo search to find information stichure: Find a Google stichure: Or Yahoo search stichure: Remember that mostly what you will find on the Internet is going to be fan sites stichure: And of course, that is worth stichure: Nothing lsciurba: do you want us to focus on the time frame the song was written, or can we discuss how it applies now stichure: biographical information and as well as some historical context. Newspapers and other periodicals such as Time magazine will be helpful with the historical aspect stichure: Then stichure: A work is a reflection of the time period in which it was created, according to historical context stichure: although ideas in life's been good are often true now, they are especially evocative of the 1970s sunshine63852000: do you have any example papers to look at leslied639: so, we only use the biographical and historical info as a guide lsciurba: true leslied639: not as a basis for the paper stichure: My web site under test and paper archive stichure: Yes Leslie stichure: That is the basis of the paper stichure: Let me rephrase stichure: You are analyzing to work through that material leslied639: i mean it is not a biography or historical paper stichure: As we did last week and as we will do today stichure: Exactly lastly lsciurba: so, stichure: Exactly Leslie lsciurba: we need to address the usual stuff like irony and symbolism.. stichure: Joe Walsh's life that he is adventures with the James gang and with the Eagles are relevant to his song stichure: Yes lsciurba: but in a way that relates to the historical aspect of the song stichure: But in the context of how these things symbolize the authors experience stichure: Yes ls lsciurba: right, that's what i meant, sort of stichure: Examples... sandstone is about heroin addiction after Vietnam War melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: Do you think all of the songs on the list are equal in terms of the information availible? stichure: No Melissa lsciurba: ok. that helps a great deal stichure: Part of your assignment is to choose something you can find information about. If you cannot find secondary sources, use another poem lsciurba: i was having trouble with where i was going with some of my info melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: so some of the songs on the list are duds? stichure: Cross Road blues is specifically related to the historical context out of Robert Johnson's life as well as black life in 1920s United States stichure: Nope Melissa... some are easier to analyze than others stichure: Some are easier to find information on than others melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: ok stichure: One particular difficult one is the jewel song stichure: According to your a jab at song, who is the person to whom the speaker is speaking in foolish games melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: of course the one i wanted to do! lsciurba: are web sources ok. I mean using all web sources instead of hard copy. I have found severl archived rolling stone articles on the net stichure: don mcleans American pie is specifically about the history of rock-and-roll up to the point that I wrote the song stichure: ... we had hardcopy and online versions stichure: The Rolling Stone is an excellent archive stichure: So is guitar player stichure: Jet stichure: Any music base magazine is going to take music seriously lsciurba: but just web stuff is fine? msb4god: what do you mean by guitar player Jet, is that his name? stichure: Battle and she requires history of my mass stichure: Guitar player and jet are magazines stichure: Now, ls. Go to the library get hard copies msb4god: oh okay, does our library have copies of them you think? lsciurba: ok stichure: A copy or available through the net stichure: hard copy or available through the net jacob_eng103 has joined the conference. lsciurba: i meant archived web stuff, like articles from magazines stichure: Precious things specifically refers to a very particular expense for Tori Amos jacob_eng103: hey sorry im late stichure: Again, ls. it will be a mixture lsciurba: k stichure: A Jacob... we are discussing resources jacob_eng103: awesome stichure: http://www.citruscollege.com/DE/Eiland/eiland_shared/poemlist.htm stichure: Go there , Jacob jacob_eng103: ok jacob_eng103: im there stichure: Again, pick something and start your research. If you do not find anything, try another lyric jacob_eng103: the song assignment right? stichure: Go to the library stichure: Use the resources they offer stichure: Yes stichure: Any questions so far vamp234201: Due when mazzei_ruben: no lsciurba: do you want an outline, note cards, any of that stuff glaugh58 has joined the conference. stichure: No L. S. stichure: I have not decided yet, vamp vamp234201: Bibliography? stichure: I want to see a what you have developed by next week stichure: Of course... lsciurba: and we send this via email? sunshine63852000: i have a question stichure: As a Word document attachment lsciurba: ok stichure: Go-ahead sunshine leslied639: you will, of course, give us more than a week, correct? stichure: Laugh, we are discussing paper one stichure: http://www.citruscollege.com/DE/Eiland/eiland_shared/poemlist.htm vamp234201: through the discussion board? stichure: I want you to start right now, but you will have at least two weeks from now stichure: No =vamp sunshine63852000: everything i click on is saying that it cannot find the page vamp234201: Could we send you a draft? glaugh58: Thanks stichure: You will send it to me as an attachment to an e-mail to me vamp234201: k stichure: http://www.citruscollege.com/DE/Eiland/eiland_shared/poemlist.htm stichure: Click on that, sunshine stichure: And make sure you have not restricted your web browser too much msb4god: is this like a rough draft? sunshine63852000: i think i got it stichure: I... got what I am looking for specifically is a well-developed draft by the end of next week stichure: I expect that next week I will have questions for me because you will have started this process... if you have not started already sunshine63852000: how long do you want it to be stichure: Three -five pages sunshine63852000: ok stichure: 2-4 secondary sources stichure: Works cited page sunshine63852000: how many primary? mazzei_ruben: 2-4 pages are about 1000 words, correct? stichure: I have no idea mazzei_ruben: i mean 3-5 now_theworld has joined the conference. stichure: I don't count words lsciurba: goofy question- is there somewhere to get bibliography help, specificly about web pages, like how to list them mazzei_ruben: ok stichure: Yes... on the web site called works cited page stichure: In the paper format and test instructions lsciurba: great, thanks stichure: And the questions about formatting, content or anything else lsciurba: found it. thank you sooo much stichure: Excellent stichure: Folks, keep in mind. You are expected to be able to use the information that you learned in English 101 stichure: essay format stichure: Quotation and citation format sunshine63852000: so we can send you a draft for suggestions and then send a final paper right? stichure: Works cited page stichure: No lsciurba: its been about 3 years for me stichure: All of this information Is on paper format and test instructions on the web site stichure: Quoting your sources stichure: Works cited format stichure: What I expect on out of class papers stichure: What a research paper looks like stichure: Etc. msb4god: where is that located? glaugh58: Wow! leslied639: we should probably just start writing and then format it later..... lsciurba: that is what i do glaugh58: We were supposed to read all this stuff from your website at the beginning of the semester, right prof? stichure: Or know it already... this is what is covered in English 101one stichure: To... from the main web site page... paper format and test construction... left column second from top melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: i have a question stichure: Test instruction stichure: OK , Melissa melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: the info you are looking for is a bit subjective right? stichure: Generally, biographical and historical information is objective stichure: Either the guy was a junkie or not melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: or are we supposed to find what the author said the song was refering to? stichure: That is always helpful, but not likely to be found most of the time stichure: And remember, your explain how this refers to the authors life or the time. lsciurba: i have a question when you are ready stichure: Go-ahead L. S. now_theworld: Paper 1 doesn't have a due date yet, correct? stichure: That is correct now vamp234201: right lsciurba: from last weeks chat, it is not an opinion if you can back it up with the material, correct? Hard to explain what i mean stichure: That is correct LS. stichure: You explained it just fine stichure: That's why it is important to pick something that is researchable stichure: If you cannot find a biographical information, you cannot do a biographical analysis lsciurba: oh good, you know what i meant stichure: Something to keep in mind stichure: There is no requirement that every work is able to be analyzed through every critical analysis that is offered in this course. You, at the end of the semester, part of your text is to determine which particular critical perspectives work better than others stichure: For, I want you to choose material that has biographical information that is relevant to lyrical content stichure: For now stichure: Likewise, I want you to choose material as historical information that is relevant to lyrical content lsciurba: so we may focus heavily on one area, and just touch on another lsciurba: later on that is stichure: To something you working on does not either of those two criteria, move on stichure: That is correct, ls stichure: Foolish games is biographical to most entirely lsciurba: easy enough, in theory lsciurba: how so stichure: American pie is historical entirely stichure: Because two well does not make any references in her song that are specifically focused on the time period in which the story was written stichure: Because Jewel msb4god: when we do a search do we search the author and the title or just the author? stichure: Likewise, McLean does not make a personal references... all of his references have to do with rock-and-roll history leslied639: Like a Rolling Stone is both..right? lsciurba: but it is about a personal experience? stichure: Start with author stichure: That is correct Leslie stichure: Which one L. S. lsciurba: jewel stichure: Yes stichure: Who was she talking to in the song lsciurba: a lover now_theworld: Can we still email you about songs that aren't on the list, or is it a bit late for that? vamp234201: Author of the song? Original Author stichure: Now, aSAP... this week stichure: Yes vamp vamp234201: Briefly about them? stichure: LS... what makes you think so vamp234201: Then more on the poem stichure: Find a single line in song that refers to romantic love stichure: Or sexual love melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: breaking my heart stichure: This would be a lot clearer if we get back to analysis of the poems were here you can all see how this works lsciurba: the words of the song, you're tearing me apart, these foolish games...breaking my heart stichure: Only lovers can break your heart? Melissa msb4god: I have my eggs and pancakes everything but you stichure: Only a lover can do this msb4god: is she talking to her father? stichure: How old was she would she wrote this melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: no but it is what you think of right off stichure: How do know that God lsciurba: no, it could be a friend, family so forth, stichure: That's exactly why critical analysis is different from "why I liked this song" stichure: Explain ls stichure: Is there any mention of sex in that song stichure: Kissing vamp234201: everything that we love can eventually break our heart msb4god: you said her parents got divorced so maybe its her father she is talking to lsciurba: it could be her father, good point god. stichure: Look specifically at the imagery vamp234201: in time stichure: What else to this person do and her life besides break her heart stichure: in her life lsciurba: looks down on her stichure: At stichure: for what lsciurba: she talks about her dirty hands lsciurba: i don't have the words here this is from memory stichure: Change of plans folks stichure: http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/jewel/foolishgames.html stichure: Go here stichure: We are going to analyze this stichure: Why were her hands dirty stichure: What is the relationship between the speaker Andy audience of this particular song stichure: Speaker and audience lsciurba: she is speaking directly to "him" acgomez3108: there stichure: Your assignment is to find verifyable analysis stichure: Who is he stichure: And what is the relationship stichure: According to the lyrics stichure: Give me specific examples from text melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: a teacher? lsciurba: I maintain lover stichure: Support answer stichure: How long has she known this person according to the lyrics vamp234201: Who else plays foolish games? vamp234201: lover? stichure: Vamp, don't jump to conclusions now_theworld: It implies lover, the way she describes the person: "Dark eyes and careless hair, you were fashionably sensitive, but too cool to care" lsciurba: she talks about his hair and eyes, but it is more then that stichure: Just low the logic stichure: Again, now show me a romantic or sexual love images stichure: Just followe lsciurba: i would not comment on your hair, prof, way to persoanal stichure: Also, how he was she when she wrote this stichure: How old was she when she wrote this msb4god: I still say her father, he smoked in the morning, she felt he was playing games with her stichure: How well does she know this person leslied639: whoever he is, she seems to feel insecure around him stichure: Find more analysis that supports that, God mazzei_ruben: i agree with god stichure: For what reason Leslie specifically stichure: Explain Ruben... support your answer stichure: Use the text and find a biography of the author stichure: How old is the author at time of writing now_theworld: I can't find any exclusively sexual or romantic imagery. leslied639: She clumsily strummed her guitar.....he is brilliant to her... stichure: If you think this is a lover, show me stichure: Who taught her to play guitar Leslie lsciurba: he is someone who makes her feel inadequate, he is better then her and she is ashamed stichure: Who is likely to impress a girl mostly now_theworld: Likely young- she was dirty he was clean, he appears as smart, she does not. leslied639: perhaps he did acgomez3108: i don't think he is a lover stichure: Very good ls... like whom msb4god: she feels like he doesnt give a damn about her, stood in the doorway with nothing to say stichure: Keep going now... find Griffey lsciurba: a father or teacher, however stichure: And a biography leslied639: she seems like a little girl who is insecure around this person....perhaps an older man stichure: Why ls mazzei_ruben: "You'd teach me of honest things," ; Well, excuse me, guess I've mistaken you for somebody else; You took your coat off, Somebody who gave a damn,Well, excuse me, guess I've mistaken you for somebody else, Somebody who gave a damn, stichure: Why Leslie stichure: What kind of person is a teacher besides a teacher acgomez3108: a father melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: her mom? stichure: What specific things did he teacher according to the song mazzei_ruben: isn't that the figure of her father? jacob_eng103: anyone can be a teacher stichure: Male or female according to the lyric, Melissa jacob_eng103: if that is her dad ...there's incest going on stichure: That is possible, Jacob does the author give us other clues stichure: Why Jacob stichure: show me sex in the lyric jacob_eng103: it is way to personal to be her dad melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: doesn't say stichure: heheh lsciurba: because of the fact that he talks about loved ones, his interests, like he is impressing her jacob_eng103: in a loving way jacob_eng103: u know what i mnean jacob_eng103: mean** stichure: Know I do not stichure: no stichure: You want me to jump to your conclusion jacob_eng103: its not easy to describe jacob_eng103: ya stichure: You must be able to stichure: That is the whole point of this class jacob_eng103: Things that were daring....i mean come on man stichure: Did anyone find information as to how old the author was lsciurba: at one point she felt on track with him, now she feels dirty leslied639: She says "Your philosophies on art", "You loved Mozart" yet when speaking about herself, she talks about clumsily strumming her guitar and smoking cigarettes stichure: I think that reflects more the listener than the speaker, Jacob jacob_eng103: she must be young...thats all that is given now_theworld: smoking and talking over coffee in the morning- it's doubtful that she would be with anyone in the morning she wasn't close to, but that doesn't rule out father figure or lover. stichure: Leslie, finish your point stichure: Young's relative Jacob... get some specifics msb4god: the person taught her about honest and clean things while she hid her dirty hands, he or she taught her to be good but showed her how to be bad stichure: Now, it depends on her age stichure: And she's 15, who is she looking at across the breakfast table glaugh58: I believe the part about her hiding her dirty hands is really a metaphor for lying and trying to hide the lies. leslied639: she seems to be speaking about how brilliant he is, but yet not herself.... stichure: Got... show to how to be bad or told her what was bad leslied639: seeming more insecure with herself stichure: Which particular things... that line is associated with something else laugh lsciurba: or he makes her feel dirty stichure: Because of something she did melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: she released her first album at 18 or something so she had to be young when she wrote the song stichure: What did she do stichure: Absolutely Melissa stichure: How many men had she lived with up to that point stichure: According to her biography jacob_eng103: lol msb4god: havent read her biography stichure: You cannot take a single line out of context melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: c'mon is it her MOM!? stichure: You'd teach me of honest things, Things that were daring, things that were clean. leslied639: At 18, she probably had not met many men that listened to Mozart and spoke about his philosophies on art..... stichure: male or female Melissa glaugh58: He taught her to do honest things, daring, clean things, in order to make a living, but she went out and did some other less-than-noble things to earn a buck. stichure: Very good laugh stichure: What person would do that stichure: What that person tells you how to do the right things stichure: the hard things msb4god: mom stichure: Dangerous things like taking risks stichure: Is that all God stichure: Is that the only person msb4god: no msb4god: mom or dad or both stichure: Does the person discussed sound like a man or a warm and msb4god: man stichure: Why lsciurba: man stichure: Explain stichure: Images stichure: Explain jacob_eng103: Somewhere along the line, I must've gone Off track with you.......how could that be a father or mother.... stichure: How can it not be stichure: hehehe jacob_eng103: a lover...she has fallen for lsciurba: that is easy, i was never on track with my parents jacob_eng103: crud!!! i dont know glaugh58: Are you kidding? Any rebellious child who thinks they've parted routes with their parents! stichure: You must drop your preconceived notions and look for the clues stichure: Very good laugh stichure: That helps, LS. stichure: Here it is the deal stichure: The reason I chose this particular work stichure: Is because 99% of the essays explained to me stichure: This is about her lover lsciurba: this person is playing a game with her, most parents wouldn't do that stichure: And don't have a biographical information to support it leslied639: most...but not all lsciurba: lovers, or preceived lovers would stichure: Really L. S. stichure: What happened to her family stichure: What that person is her father stichure: How trustworthy is hwe stichure: According to her stichure: According to her mother stichure: Who taught her how to play guitar now_theworld: I don't agree- Family members tend to screw with your head more than anyone. leslied639: she lived in her car for some time....where were her parents the???? stichure: sorry, now... stichure: Unfortunately I agree with you now_theworld: ha. stichure: Leslie, she was living with her mother stichure: Because her father had split stichure: He was a musician stichure: He told her stichure: Two men you cannot trust stichure: Cowboys stichure: And musicians stichure: And he's both melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: nice jacob_eng103: how did u know that stichure: Things that knew what an honest dollar did mean. I hid my soiled hands behind my back. stichure: Because I know the biography stichure: This is criticism stichure: This is not your opinion lsciurba: having trouble finding any thing indepth stichure: This is not what you THINK it is msb4god: so it was about her father? glaugh58: But isn't it possible that some lyrics are written about characters other than the author? stichure: Biographical information clearly tells us that her family life was pretty weird stichure: Not according to biographical criticism stichure: Again, stichure: This critical perspective says that all work is a result of the authors experience, whether we agree or not leslied639: this is good stichure: Is criticism says work is a reflection of the time period in which was written, whether we agree are not lsciurba: i agree with that stichure: Let on, we will find a critical perspective that says all the work is related to gender issues, whether we agree or not stichure: Later on glaugh58: Right, I just read that part of the text book last night. stichure: You must is the work you choose with and that particular critical perspective. That's the point of the class lsciurba: i see your point jacob_eng103: right on stichure: Thank you laugh stichure: I, that does not deemed that this is the only translation for furthermore stichure: heheh stichure: Furthermore stichure: That does not mean stichure: That this is the only translation stichure: For this particular work stichure: But this is the biographical translation for this work stichure: A gender-based criticism would take us somewhere else jacob_eng103: oh! stichure: Psychoanalytical perspective would tell us all kinds of things lsciurba: this is what i meant about opinion and backing it up stichure: I only asked you about biographical stichure: And this is what I meant about opinion jacob_eng103: we are only doing the biographical analysis of the songs stichure: The biographical information tells us that this is unlikely about a lover sense her age and I never mention does not tell us there is a significant man in in her life other than her father now_theworld: wait- aren't we using historical elements, as well? stichure: Of course leslied639: boy, psychoanalytical perspective on this song would be great stichure: But in this case, she does not make historical references now_theworld: right. stichure: That's why I said earlier that this is mostly going to be biographical now_theworld: I might've missed that piece. stichure: Just like American pie is clearly more historical jacob_eng103: got it stichure: When you read this poem again stichure: From the outset stichure: With the view that this is about a man in her life stichure: With whom she has had a long relationship stichure: With whom she spent mornings stichure: Who taught her about music stichure: And rules of life which she broke and feel bad for stichure: From whom she needs to hide whom she has become because she is ashamed stichure: Who feels that she has been abandoned by this person stichure: Who is drawn to his careless attitude but it's also hurt by it stichure: Who is more affected by his lack of caring stichure: And when you know that her life was put into turmoil by her father stichure: Who left them stichure: But who also taught her her musical talent and vocal talent stichure: Who else could it be leslied639: Ah....it all becomes quite clear stichure: If she wrote this at the age of 30, stichure: Or she included some kind of romantic or sexual reference stichure: It would lead us down a different path stichure: We are not trying to prove our point in this analysis... stichure: We are trying to see where the analysis leads us stichure: That's why this is supposed to be mostly objective lsciurba: and that is why we need to know bio msb4god: so we just state a point and then back it up melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: the bio i have says she lived with her dad stichure: To separate our own tendencies and conclusions and find what is underneath stichure: Of course LS. stichure: That God stichure: she did, Melissa stichure: Until when stichure: What happened melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: it says until she graduated stichure: Where was she when she made famous... Alaska? msb4god: Melissa where did you find the info on her biography I cant find it? stichure: keep going Melissa melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: launch.com stichure: Where was she when she became known stichure: Alaska? stichure: That's where her dad lives stichure: And that's where she lived with him stichure: No television stichure: No internal plumbing stichure: Lots of homemade music stichure: They worked in bars together stichure: harmonies stichure: yodelling stichure: Guitar melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: san diego? stichure: True... where was dad stichure: By then stichure: adz was a bit disruptive melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: out of the picture? it is a short bio stichure: To her life stichure: Find a longer one melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: pft! ok stichure: heheh stichure: Is likely you'll probably find several types of biographies... stichure: The longer and more involved the better stichure: Especially ones that specifically interview the person lsciurba: thats the trouble with chatting and researching stichure: The good thing is she has been interviewed extensively and quite open about her family relationships stichure: And the troubles within them lsciurba: really stichure: She also has published a book or two stichure: She is part of a group known as " confessional poets" stichure: Whose work is usually a reflection of themselves stichure: Please be aware that for the context of this class, I want you to keep in mind that the speaker is a character, but that being said, a biographical criticism would say that that speaker's experience is indeed the authors experience, often condensed or magnified for dramatic sake leslied639: are we still on? I'm not seeing any activity stichure: I'm here Leslie stichure: Very often bad or good elements out of a relationship will be exaggerated because poetry is condensed vamp234201: I found some live interviews of Jewel on AOL music which might help our writer stichure: Rolling stone also has interviewed her extensively stichure: Remember also that an effective poet's job is not to make everything about the poet stichure: It is to make the audience relate to the material vamp234201: whe speaks about her music being in her own head her own life stichure: Thus, he is not incorrect to listen to a song like this and related to your own romantic experience, for example stichure: However leslied639: Thanks....things were just delayed stichure: Specific critical perspectives, but once covered in this course, well never rattled the focus to make only one or two possibilities available stichure: Interesting vamp stichure: She, like Tori Amos, like Jim Morrison, like alanis morrissette vamp234201: Helped to listen to the author speak stichure: Writes about herself but her ability and her genius is her ability to make you experience her world as if it were your own stichure: It does vamp stichure: It also is excellent secondary source material stichure: From the horses mouth stichure: So to speak vamp234201: I think when you hear a persons voice it clearifies things lsciurba: if it doesn't touch you, why listen, and after listening we become interested stichure: Any other questions about biographical analysis stichure: Of course L. S. stichure: And what this type of class teaches you is to back away stichure: To see out different people can view the same material in different ways stichure: Because then you can understand why do you draw conclusions that differ from yours stichure: Why THEY draw conclusions now_theworld: Just to be sure- Autobiographical information is just as good (if not better) than a secondary biographical source, right? stichure: They differ from yours and therefore more effectively argue against them in a Laker class stichure: Yes, now although some autobiographies omit painful material stichure: I am not sure at this point that an autobiography by, for example, Michael Jackson, it would necessarily tell us everything that would explain his behavior stichure: People who are very old tend to be more honest about their lives stichure: Because they don't care anymore about selling records leslied639: funny stichure: Or imagery lsciurba: lol stichure: I'm not kidding stichure: However, confessional poets are known for giving us their autobiography song after song after song lsciurba: i know stichure: Also realize that other poets will purposely deceive and create characters that are nothing like themselves in order to create an image stichure: Example stichure: Look at the two rap songs that are on my list stichure: Do some research stichure: At whether ice cube was ever actually in a gang stichure: If not, what would be the purpose of writing from the perspective of the game member now_theworld: it sells records. stichure: And that case, the biographical information might actually be exactly opposite of what the song seems to say stichure: Absolutely now vamp234201: apologies I have to run now till next week stichure: Same with heavy metal stichure: Take caree vamp... start on your paper so you can ask me questions stichure: Next week vamp234201: k stichure: Has anyone already chosen their topic msb4god: we have a lot of work to do vamp234201 has left the conference. stichure: stichure: Besides Joe Walsh stichure: Or jewel jacob_eng103: not yet leslied639: Bob Dylan msb4god: I am going to go and start doing research, I cant find any good info on jewel stichure: Pick something so you have a reference point and I can help you land somewhere glaugh58: yes, I think I'm going to do mine on White Rabbit, by the Jefferson Airplane jacob_eng103: sex pistols jacob_eng103: yes!!! stichure: That is historical laugh, although information about the and specifically and grace specifically will help stichure: Sex pistols... definitely both biographical and historical sunshine63852000: i think ill do gangsters paradise jacob_eng103: right on stichure: Especially historical jacob_eng103: oh yeah jacob_eng103: thats my band now_theworld: Bob Dylan- that's why I asked about autobiographies. stichure: gangsters paradise... keep in mind that the song... the melody... is from another song by Stevie wonder sunshine63852000: ok msb4god: goodnight everyone, and good luck on your research and your papers stichure: bye god lsciurba: bye god jacob_eng103: u too jacob_eng103: is taht it for this week stichure: dylan is mostly historical and the sense he is talking about historical figures stichure: If you're talking like a Rolling Stone, find out who he's talking about msb4god has left the conference. stichure: (edie sedgwick) acgomez3108: You're always the mysterious one with Dark eyes and careless hair, You were fashionably sensitive see you next week, thank you for all the information! glaugh58: should we not include historical, then? now_theworld: I was hoping Masters of War, I emailed you. stichure: asap Jacob jacob_eng103: i know stichure: TakeCare Gomez stichure: La yes leslied639: Ok. Good night all. Have a great week! stichure: I'll check it out, now stichure: By Leslie jacob_eng103: see you next week lsciurba: more for my own info, with white rabbit, you could focus on drugs in that time frame stichure: Laugh, yes stichure: Yes LS. mazzei_ruben: is Dylan talking about a college girl who became hippie? leslied639 has left the conference. stichure: As well as be much publicized downfall of the Grace slick stichure: no Ruben... this is pre hippie jacob_eng103 has left the conference. stichure: This is Greenwich Village stichure: The folk scene lsciurba: how they affected her an d her career stichure: heroin glaugh58: That's what I was thinking of ==drugs, Alice in wonderland, Grace, Marty, Paul... sunshine63852000: ive got to go so see everyone next week mazzei_ruben: because..that's the part i am having troubles stichure: Yes... San Francisco psychedelic revolution, laugh stichure: Take care sunshine sunshine63852000: bye bye glaugh58: great, thanks for the feedback and the great chat. lsciurba: what about the influence the song had, did more people try drugs because of it sunshine63852000 has left the conference. glaugh58: hmm, interesting idea, lsciurba stichure: ruben... look up edie Sedgwick melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: so if a song does not refer to a specific time in history we leave that out? stichure: And Andy Warhol's situation mazzei_ruben: ok lsciurba: especially since it ties into a popular childhood story stichure: teh morals and mores of a particular era Melissa... if they are not mentioned, I really wouldn't have much to say stichure: True LS glaugh58: Right! Well, I guess I'd better get to work on that, as well as the Astronomy homework that's due tomorrow! Ciao folks, lsciurba: night stichure: Certainly "like a Rolling Stone" and "white rabbit" are particularly referring to a specific time period and a tendency for a particular individuals to do particular things stichure: Take care laugh glaugh58 has left the conference. stichure: Historical information such as statistics and discussions of society and social behavior will be helpful stichure: Time magazine stichure: Newspapers stichure: Rolling Stone melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: but what about jewel stichure: Cultural analyses stichure: Jewel is mostly going to be biographical stichure: She's not talking about an era she's talking about a very specific person lsciurba: rolling stone had a lot of stuff for me stichure: Is quite dense stichure: Jewel is not referring to what people do... she's referring to what a person did and it is not related to a particular cultural phenomenon stichure: Conversely, like a Rolling Stone is referring not only to a specific person, but also to a group of people who can from privilege and hung out with the underclass in order to be hip... and succumbed to the problems of those people stichure: Who came from privilege stichure: But all of that is very clearly explained in song stichure: Thanks, Jeff Corwin has started which tells me it's9 o clock stichure: Start your research mazzei_ruben: ok melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: haha mazzei_ruben: thanks for your help! stichure: Find something helpful now_theworld: goodnight. up stichure: And if not, moved to something else stichure: Take care now now_theworld has left the conference. lsciurba: thanks, i had some stuff but wasn't sure where to go, now i do stichure: You're welcome ruben lsciurba: night stichure: Great LS mazzei_ruben has left the conference. stichure: bye ls lsciurba: bye lsciurba has left the conference. melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net: bye melissa_taggart@sbcglobal.net has left the conference. stichure: bye gomez stichure: poof